Counterfeit Audioquest cables?

[microstrip]

I kinda hate to say this. For most designers there is no real R&D. It's the designers learning curve for ideas that already exist. Why should the customer pay for that? Should we be entitled to a minimal level of expertise before offering a product?

Again, trademarks are protected by law - it is a type of intellectual property. No expertise is needed to aptly for it. Expertise is needed to create a valuable trademark.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think that this does not apply to fakes. They sell cosmetics, not technical specs or measurable performance. They just fundamentally infringe copywright and trade marks.

Micro and what if you cant hear the difference ?
Lets do a DBT double blind test

 

[microstrip]

Micro and what if you cant hear the difference ?
Lets do a DBT double blind test

Fortunately adequate measurements will separate fake from real cables. In 99% of the cases a simple caliper will deal with this question. The real problem is that most buyers do not have access to a proper genuine cable for comparison.

 

[andromedaaudio]

intellectual property

Are you sure we can apply the term " intellectual " to the audiophile cable issue

 

[andromedaaudio]

Fortunately adequate measurements will separate fake from real cables. In 99% of the cases a simple caliper will deal with this question. The real problem is that most buyers do not have access to a proper genuine cable for comparison.

I thought hearing/ listening would have the final word in this case , but apparently not

 

[joey_v]

Re fakes vs real, AQ is very quick about authenticating cables. Sent in my wels and within 48h, it was fedexed back to me as real.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Did anyone do a listening test .
Fake versus - real ones and if so what was the outcome ?

 

[Holmz]

Did anyone do a listening test .
Fake versus - real ones and if so what was the outcome ?

Without being able to hear a difference and needing the manufacture to say if it real… sort of makes me wonder if it is any different than the fake.

Re fakes vs real, AQ is very quick about authenticating cables. Sent in my wels and within 48h, it was fedexed back to me as real.

Did they need to burn in again?

 

[mulveling]

It's exactly like with "counterfeit" vintage tubes. They may actually be usable, serviceable items - just not the product you (thought you) paid for, and usually not close to the same sound. There's a whole spectrum out there. Some tubes are just Chinese or Russian with a faked Telefunken / Amperex / Mullard labels on them. But some mislabeled Telefunkens are actually Ei Yugos made on the old Telefunken machinery - which are somewhat close to the real deal. Same with the "fake" AQ cables. Many use the exact same outer sheath of higher end AQ models, but with the wrong (always cheaper) internals. Like Columbia (copper) internals under a Sky sheath that was supposed to have solid silver wire in larger air tubes. Then on the WEL Signature interconnects, I've see lots of obvious counterfeits for sale, where the tubes are far too skinny relative to the connectors. Who knows what's in there but it's not a WEL. You can be sure none of the "fakes" use real solid silver of the higher models because it's too expensive. Some have claimed that their K2 fakes (one of the most fakes AQ cables of all time, along with Sky and WEL Signature) had steel wire inside to at least try to look like the silver wire it was emulating. These will NOT sound like genuine silver K2s (if you think steel and silver wires sound this same this is the wrong hobby).

Anyways, I can't recall anyone who's had both fakes and real and couldn't figure out which was which. What we see is guys with one or the other who "aren't sure" what they've got. Careful vetting of seller, plus a careful eye for detail will eliminate 99% of the chance of getting a fake. If in doubt, opening it up (many AQ cables allow this without being destructive) will usually tell the story. And yeah, you can always send it to AQ for a quick turnaround to remove all doubt. I've done it several times and never got a fake yet - because I'm careful.

 

[Gregadd]

I think almost all cables fall in the category of innovation not invention. Thus, no patents. That means the technology is in the public domain. Trademark violation is a fraud.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think almost all cables fall in the category of innovation

And even this is highly debated , i think there have been already 5 million forumpages spend on the issue with inconclusive result
Looking at past / recent forum developments , i think the cabling issue is one of the main causes of division in audio society

 

[Gregadd]

"Division" is putting it lightly.

 

[Bulldogger]

Audioquest makes some really great sounding cables. I gave up on buying them used however. There were too many fakes on the market. The last pair I purchased on Ebay were determined to be fakes. I returned them to a protesting seller that had no idea that they were fakes.

 

[GSOphile]

I think almost all cables fall in the category of innovation not invention. Thus, no patents. That means the technology is in the public domain. Trademark violation is a fraud.

Shunyata has patents on a number technologies used in their cable and distributor products.

 

[Forsa]

While AQ says their cables are made in the USA it’s very easy to figure out that their facility is not a foundry with the smelters and other gigantic industrial machinery needed to produce wire product. I don’t even thing they can make anything like that with the harsh EPA rules that moved almost every wire production plant overseas. With that said there is plenty of evidence that they are made in Asia and ASSEMBLED in the USA. It’s not uncommon for stuff to make it’s way out the back door inChina and get grey marketed. I have seen knockoff cables from most manufacturers and they are generally easy to spot but the AQ stuff I have seen that is of dubious origin is impossible to tell from the genuine article. They look like they are back door specials to me. Cardas knockoffs are obviously fake when seen as well as the Siltech knockoffs.

I will say this, the knockoffs (Cardas, Siltech etc) usually sound great, just not the same as the real deal. The AQ knockoffs sound like AQ. AQ will probably deny everything but I have personally seen them from a fellow audio club member.
This is the problem with China. They make most everything sold and they have no scruples.

Actually Audioquest speaker cables are not made in the US, they are made in their factories in China and the Netherlands.
Also many of the pseudo fake AQ cables, are actually real and where stolen from their shipping departments, reason why AQ want to always destroy them, which they do not have the legal right to do so without paying you for what you paid for as they are not their property, fake or not!
I stopped buying their cables a long time ago. The reality is that they over sale their quality and ask an astronomical amount of money for them. Is no cable in the world that its worth 20K, I buy gold with that money. I own 450K in hardware, and now I look for custom made cables like Stevens custom made at a portion of the price. I do still own many AQ cables, including original K2's, Vodka, etc.
I have tested many cables, including, Mogami, Audioquest, Van Dam Silver, Gobel, I was a freak of Audio, but at the end, very little difference if any when you buy well made high quality cables.
Equipment
Mcintosh MX180
Sonus Faber Aida's / Studio Arendal 1723
Cables Steven's Premium custom 9AWG
Turntable AET Forte / #5 cartdrige,
Power conditioners, Panamax / Furman.
etc

 

[Forsa]

So here's a concrete example:
Just yesterday I was perusing used cables ads (looking for those bargains, lol), and saw a listing of WEL Signature XLR that looks very suspicious to me. Judging by ad photos, it's almost certainly a fake - but it would be hard to determine this without close familiarity to the legit item. Look at the tubing of the cable in ad, with diameter significantly smaller than its connector opening. Then look at my personal WEL XLR (over red rug), with visibly fatter tubing. This pair I purchased as demo model from an authorized AQ dealer, and also had it later split & re-terminated by AQ - so it's "doubly" guaranteed authentic. The real WEL IC is a very fat cable for an interconnect, because its internal air tubes are very large. This also causes a very significant "rattle" effect when tapped or disturbed. Next down in size is the Wild Blue Yonder (which I also own 2 example of); just slightly less fat than WEL. Then next down is the Fire, and finally Wind / Earth. The suspicious cable in ad looks more like a Wind size.

The suspected fake (also note its braid looks slightly different):
View attachment 98134

My authentic cable:
View attachment 98135

 

[microstrip]

In fact audiophiles are cheated with cables because audiophiles are supposed to believe in magic and hate technology and measuring knowledge. Since long I use the little tool shown in the picture when buying used cables - I must say I hate paying high prices for cables but appreciate the performance of the top cables, used cables are a must in my system! The Peak LCR45 accurately measures the capacitance and the inductance of the cables, something that is hard to duplicate exactly in fakes if the cable has an elaborate design - in fact I have never seen a fake with the correct measurements, although an old Kimber AGDL dangerously approached the proper value.

Unfortunately many manufacturers want audiophiles to be magic believers and do not release such information, even when directly asked individually. Fortunately I have access to such original cables of friends or dealers and can get the correct values in ten seconds. The shown shorting plug is used to measure the inductance.

As in anything in the high-end, also remember that if it looks too good to be true, it is not true.

 

[wil]

"...{text omitted} This is the problem with China. They make most everything sold, and they have no scruples."
And yet we swim in their pool every chance we get. They have no obligation to follow our rules. They are a sovereign country free to define their own game.

Sure, they don’t feel any obligation to follow basic values of integrity. A huge segment of the Chinese economy is a criminal enterprise.

 

[Alrainbow]

Many items are fake.
PS audio years ago had massive fake power cords
Paul went nuts trying to help owners or customers looking to buy them
capacitors are a big problem too fake names
Even cans having not even close to spec caps inside the cans
imagine that.
there was a cable show called bullshit
we audio folk would need a multiple season to get close to the level of fake or just plain impossible
we get cheated on many levels
maybe jays lab can narrate a few episodes for us

 

[Alrainbow]

In fact audiophiles are cheated with cables because audiophiles are supposed to believe in magic and hate technology and measuring knowledge. Since long I use the little tool shown in the picture when buying used cables - I must say I hate paying high prices for cables but appreciate the performance of the top cables, used cables are a must in my system! The Peak LCR45 accurately measures the capacitance and the inductance of the cables, something that is hard to duplicate exactly in fakes if the cable has an elaborate design - in fact I have never seen a fake with the correct measurements, although an old Kimber AGDL dangerously approached the proper value.

Unfortunately many manufacturers want audiophiles to be magic believers and do not release such information, even when directly asked individually. Fortunately I have access to such original cables of friends or dealers and can get the correct values in ten seconds. The shown shorting plug is used to measure the inductance.

As in anything in the high-end, also remember that if it looks too good to be true, it is not true.

View attachment 117162

At what freq does it use for measuring?