Crossover Points and Augmented Wideband Driver Speakers

[andromedaaudio]

Its the same as some body with a small 2 way system is saying " my speakers also do 40 Hz ".
There is quite a big difference in sound pressure/ expirience if my 12 / 11 inchers do that 40 Hz
40 Hz on one system ain't 40 Hz on another, there are more things that come in to play .
40 Hz. - 3 db on a ribbon is also different , its still 40 Hz Though

 

[bache]

All those so called advantages and aiming for a driver who can do it all , nobody mentions the negatives imo.
With a 4 inch driver Starting from 400 or 500 Hz there are also disadvantages , i prefer to use a bigger driver to reproduce those low mid. Freq because IT. Gives more body /membrane surface to the sound .
See there is a big diffence if 1 of my 11 inch woofers is producing 400 Hz OR a Tiny 4 inch mid.
That can surely produce a thin sound
This is actually an area where i wanna experiment further with in a future model .
If there ever Will be , either using a 5 OR 4 inch driver and cross higher, OR using a large ribbon tw that can be crossed at 1200 Hz or so , which is lower then i use now

For Baffle step compensetion bigger size driver allow use wider bafffle, i made this experiment with 8" drivers, 11" driver just have bigger sensitivity and
lower resonance , think about old speakers made much more wide baffle then new one . For convention 3 way is ok, but for one or 2 way is problem
All high end LS using crosspoint 500-700 Hz, Top of the line Wilson besides Woofer add midbass driver, My Metro-001 , 4" wide range working
perfect from 600hz, and buttom support by 8" very powerfull woofer , and supertweeter. If you listen this info first time , this does not mean is new
All of this information you can read online , i send you link before

 

[DaveC]

With a 4 inch driver Starting from 400 or 500 Hz there are also disadvantages , i prefer to use a bigger driver to reproduce those low mid. Freq because IT. Gives more body /membrane surface to the sound .
See there is a big diffence if 1 of my 11 inch woofers is producing 400 Hz OR a Tiny 4 inch mid.
That can surely produce a thin sound

An acoustic horn can take care of this, baffle step and directivity issues all at the same time...

 

[bache]

An acoustic horn can take care of this, baffle step and directivity issues all at the same time...

You absolutely right, acoustic horn illuminate this problem , but good horn is expensive and big and get low WAF

 

[Cellcbern]

I am not qualified to participate in a discussion of the specifics of loudspeaker design. However I have been an audiophile for more than 40 years, have owned several different high end systems, and have a reasonably educated ear when it comes to music reproduction.
I own a pair of the Bache Audio Metro 001 speakers, and in my 16'x10'x8' listening room they are superb, significantly outperforming the Merlin VSM-Mme's they replaced after more than a decade of ownership. The 4" widebander in the Metro-001 is anything but thin, and the speakers will play wall-shaking loud without distortion with a 35 watt amplifier. Now that they are broken in the imaging and soundstaging are superior to what the Merlins provided, the midrange is more tonally dense and articulate, and the Heil air motion transformer used as a supertweeter gives up nothing to the Esotar. Most importantly, the Bache speakers are more relaxed and organic sounding than the Merlins without any deficiency in dynamics, attack, or transient speed, allowing me to enjoy recordings that sounded etched and bright with the Merlins.

 

[morricab]

All those so called advantages and aiming for a driver who can do it all , nobody mentions the negatives imo.
With a 4 inch driver Starting from 400 or 500 Hz there are also disadvantages , i prefer to use a bigger driver to reproduce those low mid. Freq because IT. Gives more body /membrane surface to the sound .
See there is a big diffence if 1 of my 11 inch woofers is producing 400 Hz OR a Tiny 4 inch mid.
That can surely produce a thin sound
This is actually an area where i wanna experiment further with in a future model .
If there ever Will be , either using a 5 OR 4 inch driver and cross higher, OR using a large ribbon tw that can be crossed at 1200 Hz or so , which is lower then i use now

One word for true full range single driver...Acoustat.

 

[bonzo75]

One word for true full range single driver...Acoustat.

The audio exklusiv are quite musical as well, and have a good used price. As a full range they sound better than CLX, though with ML I prefer the hybrids

 

[morricab]

The audio exklusiv are quite musical as well, and have a good used price. As a full range they sound better than CLX, though with ML I prefer the hybrids

Just about to augment my Decware HDT fullrange speakers with a 1inch compression driver (Beyma CP350TI + 18 sound waveguide) for 2khz and up. Bass maybe later because that actually make quite ok bass. I will use minidsp nanodigi and two dacs/amps.

 

[Scott L]

There are many paths to nirvana. For me, I have chosen to use a wide-band mid-range, augmented. Once I heard the "tone" of a Tang-Band w8-1772 driver, I knew that I wanted it. However, left on it's own merits, to be used "full-range," left a thin lower mid-range, indeed. I asked myself, why would I utilize a driver in a range where it is uncomfortable (?) I had just acquired a pair of Vintage (1941) Jensen horns, and the throat size was an ideal match for the TB driver. Yes, my target was to keep the essential mid-range intact, without any sort of passive element crossover. I have been sold on 4-way active systems for many years now, so why abandon what works for me ? Hence, this is my full range system. Bass as deep as the room will re-produce, and soaring highs. But, the mid-range is where we live (Paul Klipsch). 250-6K Hz, from one source. WAF not applicable in my domain.

 

[DaveC]

There are many paths to nirvana. For me, I have chosen to use a wide-band mid-range, augmented. Once I heard the "tone" of a Tang-Band w8-1772 driver, I knew that I wanted it. However, left on it's own merits, to be used "full-range," left a thin lower mid-range, indeed. I asked myself, why would I utilize a driver in a range where it is uncomfortable (?) I had just acquired a pair of Vintage (1941) Jensen horns, and the throat size was an ideal match for the TB driver. Yes, my target was to keep the essential mid-range intact, without any sort of passive element crossover. I have been sold on 4-way active systems for many years now, so why abandon what works for me ? Hence, this is my full range system. Bass as deep as the room will re-produce, and soaring highs. But, the mid-range is where we live (Paul Klipsch). 250-6K Hz, from one source. WAF not applicable in my domain.

Nice speakers!

I see you're a SLOB (fan). Or a variation, looks like the back is closed?

 

[Scott L]

Nice speakers!

I see you're a SLOB (fan). Or a variation, looks like the back is closed?

The deep bass runs 20-60Hz. The left hand side as you view the picture, is plenum-loaded, forced cancellation, infinite baffle bass. It was several years later, that I added the right hand side, bass. It's a sealed, 34 cubic footer, with 8x15 inch drivers, push-pull, slot load. It's the same bass loading technique that I have been using for the mid-bass sections(under the red horns). I did not have any room for an additional 462 cubic foot infinite baffle, for the right side, so this was my compromise. The right side is only flat to 30Hz, but I have tremendous room lift between 20 and 30, so this actuality smooths things out. By the way, to those that say stereo bass sounds better than mono, you are right. I was in denial myself, thinking that mono bass, from a single source, since undetectable-location wise, was adequate. In reality, it's not bad, it's just that now the bass sounds better the way it is--stereo.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

...my new Bache Audio Metro 001 speakers, with a single wideband driver covering the range of 400 hz to 10,000 hz, augmented by a woofer and a super tweeter, sounds different from all of these other speakers. The midrange of the Bache 001's is cleaner, more coherent, more natural than I have heard before... I have to conclude that Bache's design has an inherent advantage over more traditional designs...

I have no experience with Bache speakers, but agree with your conclusion that their configuration has inherent advantages over more traditional designs.

My first commercial effort was an augmented fullrange driver speaker, but I made a couple of mistakes in my design which Bache does not make.

The day may come when I try an augmented fullrange driver system again, but I wouldn't copy Bache because that's not cool... I'd do some things differently, while tipping my virtual hat to them for a job well done.

I realize that wideband get poor ability to work midbass region 100-500 HZ ( baffle step) ... we add woofer with crosspoint 500-700 HZ ( Metro-001, Tribeca-001 etc)."

Very elegant job of addressing the baffle step issue AND power handling limitations of wideband drivers AND intermodulation distortion (which can reduce the clarity of "fullrange" drivers on loud/complex passages) all at the same time.

 

[bache]

Just upgrade my commercial design with wideband design --refuse and illuminate all crossover , no capacitor , no coil--- straight, wideband get very small minimal chamber, i dont know may be theoretically inter modulation and regular increase , but no phase distortion and working with woofer
and super tweeter - sound dutiable became more pleasurable

 

[henzefan]

Cellcbern​

VIP/Donor​

• May 6, 2018
• Add bookmark
• #1

Over the years I've owned a number of different speakers - KLH, Cerwin Vega, Polk, Opera Audio, Ars Aures, and Merlin VSM. One thing they all had in common was a crossover point in the 2000 hz (+ or -) range. I've read reviews of speakers where the reviewer claimed to be able to hear the crossover point, manifested as some sort of discontinuity. I've never heard that. My Merlin VSM's for example sounded completely seamless. Yet my new Bache Audio Metro 001 speakers, with a single wideband driver covering the range of 400 hz to 10,000 hz, augmented by a woofer and a super tweeter, sounds different from all of these other speakers. The midrange of the Bache 001's is cleaner, more coherent, more natural than I have heard before. Music flows from the speakers in a more relaxed manner, and subjectively dynamic range is greater, with no etch or brightness, and no loss of resolution compared with the Merlins. I have to conclude that Bache's design has an inherent advantage over more traditional designs with a crossover point or points in the midrange frequencies. I wonder why more speaker designers haven't tried this approach?

• 

Reactions:Duke LeJeune




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WOW just hit on this web site by accident, while looking for backup support for my ideas of employing a wide band as midrange,, this OP wasthe 1st link and am I glad I googled to find this site and OP.
WOW, Finally have further validation of a idea that I've been experiementing with past year.
Employing a wide band as midrange. with my Seas Thors as only in the assist position.

Absoluetly no doubt about it, all speakers of the xover type suffer the terrible weakness of low sensitivity. This is a handicap which makes the amp to work OT and this cripples the musical image.I started this experiement after upgrading my Seas Thors with new high tech Mundorf caps, thinking this would transform the Thors intoa super speaker,,,,ahhh big let down, hardly a nuance in sonic gains, tiny upgrade..
So I took a much closer look at many types of wide bands, after purchasing several,, I found one which really made such a impression that I know it will be my final speaker.

You can see my latest video.
I also tested the Tang Band 2145, witha bamboo fiber cone and the results were very close to the DavidLouis VX8. I Only need 1 pair, and felt the DavidLouis by a slim margin beat out the Tang Band, but honestly both are near identical in sound, although both look, built completely different,,(???))
This OP came up while looking for support of my argument while posting on my Agon topic.

 

[henzefan]

out the Zus for a stellar horns alternative.

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I would only trade out my DavidLouis VX8 fora nice horn midrange,
But thats not likely to happen as horns are too big and expensive, I'm happy with the wide band, Although I am aware a expensive horn system is super high fidelity, but not practical in my needs.

 

[henzefan]

feature an 8" Tangband wide band driver say that designer Greg Belman's removal of the whizzer cone was one of the key steps in perfecting the design.


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Tang Band's 2145 , no whizzer cone offers stunning bass, clean clear midrange, no over tone/distortion free, fatigue free mids,, and stellar highs..
I felt both the DavidLouis and the Tang band as near identical twins in performance,,maybe highs going to TB's aluminum phase plug, vs DavidLouis aluminum phase plug w whizzer.
bass was near identical.
Mids near identical.
Dif to choose, but stayed with the davidLouis and shiped back the TB's.
Dual wide bands did not work out , wayyyy too midrange thick.

 

[henzefan]

spiritofmusic​

Well-Known Member​

• May 10, 2018
• Add bookmark
• #4

Sure
But by definition an 8” driver won’t reach down as low as a 10.6” driver, and my Zus go down to sub 40Hz full range.


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The 10 inch will indeed go **lower than*** the 8, but then how much music is below 40hz??
Cello lowest note is 60hz.
My DavidLouis goes at least 40hz. I have no complaints about soft bass.

Once you get into a 10 inch wide band, you might have compromised mids, and especially early roll off on the highs.
IMHO the 8 is the most ideal cone fora wide band.
I prefer the DavidLouis bamboo wood cone over any paper (Voxativ has paper, AER not sure what the material))
Tang Band also has a phenomenol fiber(bamboo?) cone for deep accurate bass, .
Both hit the 40hz. = happy audiophile.

 

[henzefan]

DaveC​

Industry Expert​

• May 10, 2018
• Add bookmark
• #8

I agree the augmented wideband is a superior design. My speaker covers 400-15,000 Hz at ~102 dB efficiency and using only a single capacitor to limit excursion and an acoustic xo created by the horn at 400 Hz. There is less in the signal path and no crossover in the critical frequencies, as well as no dome or ribbon tweeter at all. I won't be going back to traditional multi-way.


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***Augmented Wide Band**** aka, WBer w/ speaker assist.
Wide bands as star of the show, as the principle soprano, main tenor,, my Seas Thors as minor operatic roles.
Seas Thots W18E001's at 87 db. just adding some emblishments on the DavidLouis low end hz.s
I took out the Seas Millennium tweeters as a 87db faiilure and installed Kasun paper tweeters, But will order a pair of DavidLouis Be/Nd tweeters next year. for the 9khz shimmer and sheen on the highs.
Once you've heard a wide band /with augumenttion speakers,, you'll never go back to traditional low sens speakers,
Never.

 

[henzefan]

andromedaaudio​

VIP/Donor​

• May 10, 2018
• Add bookmark
• #9

Wilson for example has probably tried to give the upper midrange more solidity , impact by adding a 4 inch which can may be play up until 3.5 kHz.
Finding a unit that can do everything without Breaking up early ain't easy.
By the way what gives a speaker a wideband feeling is the 20 - 100 Hz range , that effects / supports the whole freq range dramatically , so also very important


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Wilson is attempting to do what a high tech wide band is alreay capable of doing,
But the wide bands internal superiority is making this critical midrange with stunning ease and natural voicing,,,allowing the amp to work with much less strain.

Wilson's with its multi driver configure, can not compete with a true high fidelity 8 inch wide band in this critical 100hz- 3k hz, = where 90%++ of our music is voiced.

 

[henzefan]

andromedaaudio​

VIP/Donor​

• May 10, 2018
• Add bookmark
• #12

Regarding a 4 inch bamboo diagphram play ing up to 10 kHz without serious break up, i can only say show me the numbers.
And i dont mean a manufacturers stament by that

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4 inchers are OK, nothing great,
But I should say had a very nice kick in the bass.
But mids were a bit stressed and highs rolled off.
The 2 *'s I mentioned about are the best I 've heard so far.
IMHO 8 inch bamboo wood (VX8)or bamboo fiber(TB2145) cone is the ideal cone fora wide band speaker