Dark sounding gear

[bblue]

I haven't heard the X250.5 but I did hear the XA -200.5 recently with speakers I know very well. I really liked them.

The XA series are all class-A and are really top notch performers. I'm sure they're better than the X series which are class A up to about 15% full power, and then AB after that. Even at my typical listening levels 80-90db they pretty much stay in class A. I've heard that the X350.5 betters the X250.5 by a small margin (power supply, probably) but I haven't yet been able to justify that upgrade (they be quite pricey!).

I'd really prefer full class A but the heat generated and power used make them much more expensive to operate.

--Bill

 

[RogerD]

Honestly, I really wouldn’t know how to label my Krell gear. If I had to use only one word to describe the sound, that word would be beautiful. I do think the KSA-250 has a foundation like few other amps. And by that I mean how solid the bass reproduction is from 20 Hz to 80 Hz. The bottom two octaves are oh so hard to get right in a stereo system, and if you can’t do it with the KSA-250, you need to look elsewhere in your system to find the problem. The Krell projects a sense of power and ease that makes you feel like it is always coasting and therefore you are never taxing it.

Last night I was listening to a CD that Steve made for me which is a compilation of Swedish artists. There is a rendition of St. James Infirmary by Baba Blues which is just outstanding. Man oh man, when the saxophone enters into the mix, all of the power, glory, and tonal colors of a sax are there right in front of you. Later I listened to a Sonny Rollins tape and the illusion of having a sax player in my listening room knocking me out of my chair was basically the same.

I think it takes lots of power and/or high efficiency speakers to come close to do justice to wind instruments playing back at realistic levels. When you hear wind instruments in person and up close, the power they project is unreal. It’s hard to believe that one guy blowing into a wind instrument could be so loud, but it is. The Krell gear is capable of making the instruments sound live. If this is the sound of *dark,* I guess I like dark.

I think great amplifiers,what can't be said is "false in one, false in all". Enjoy your music Mark.

 

[mep]

The XA series are all class-A and are really top notch performers. I'm sure they're better than the X series which are class A up to about 15% full power, and then AB after that. Even at my typical listening levels 80-90db they pretty much stay in class A. I've heard that the X350.5 betters the X250.5 by a small margin (power supply, probably) but I haven't yet been able to justify that upgrade (they be quite pricey!).

I'd really prefer full class A but the heat generated and power used make them much more expensive to operate.

--Bill

I briefly owned the X-250 amp. The reason it was brief was because I couldn’t stand it. It couldn’t handle my speakers which makes no sense to me. It sounded wimpy with a capital “W.”

 

[RBFC]

Mark,

Despite some 'haters", Krell makes incredible equipment. The amps are top-class. You know how good it sounds. I'm in the same boat. I'm concentrating on source and material.

Lee

 

[DaveyF]

I have had some dark-sounding amps, the Gryphon Anthileon as the most dark of all, and miss it like hell!!!...to me, a dark sounding amp is a one that has a melancolic, velveted, rather slowish presentation that favours small ensambles, trios, acoustic and small choral music - the opposite would be an ultra fast, shinning, light in the bass and crispy amp that favours symphonic, some Pop and complicated/saturated material.

I agree with you Fernando. Talking about Rowland amps and the 1,3,8 and 9 in particular, I do NOT think that they are 'dark' unless we ascertain the same values as your post to them. I have 'AB'ed my model 8 against numerous amps and our a'phile group and I have never heard any lack of high end extension or other anomaly that would lead to the conclusion that the amp was somehow removing information or not allowing everything that was at the source to pass through. Many of the other amps ( like the notorious Halcro) we were not able to say that about, but not the Rowland.

BUT if you are considering 'Not Dark' to mean light in the bass, bright and otherwise 'lean' then I guess we would consider the Rowland as 'Dark'.

 

[LL21]

I agree with you Fernando. Talking about Rowland amps and the 1,3,8 and 9 in particular, I do NOT think that they are 'dark' unless we ascertain the same values as your post to them. I have 'AB'ed my model 8 against numerous amps and our a'phile group and I have never heard any lack of high end extension or other anomaly that would lead to the conclusion that the amp was somehow removing information or not allowing everything that was at the source to pass through. Many of the other amps ( like the notorious Halcro) we were not able to say that about, but not the Rowland.

BUT if you are considering 'Not Dark' to mean light in the bass, bright and otherwise 'lean' then I guess we would consider the Rowland as 'Dark'.

I too, like Fernando/Flez007, have owned the Gryphon Antileon. Here is where i come out:

1. My favorite amps are all class A SS: Gryphon Antileon, Gryphon Colosseum, Forte 4, Boulder (slightly different voicing but still like just not as much), older Krell...i have heard the Krell250 a long time ago
2. On the 'dark' point, i find that the Gryphon Antileon does everything so well from top to bottom you really just enjoy music.
3. HOWEVER, I finally got the 'dark' v 'light' comment when i compared the Gryphon Antileon in my system to an older Goldmund which had sensational treble but otherwise did not compare to the Gryphon.

What happened is that the entire treble range literally felt like someone widened the lights on stage to include the violins, piccolos, etc...but NOT in a way that was less natural, that was more 'strident' or overtly detailed...more of a focus where suddenly you were able to pay as much as attention and enjoy the piccolos as the mid-strings, vocals, upper and lower bass.

That taught me something...i finally understood from the Goldmund what the Antileon did well and perhaps where string quartets had a more mid/bass focus than perhaps the original music might have.

Enter the Gryphon Colosseum...this piece of equipment captures all of the characteristics that i love about the Gryphon Antileon (and the Krell KSA250 and Forte 4)...and relights the treble area with an equally pure tonality that has the same depth of tone and note that i love about the rest of the music spectrum.

In the end, i never ever felt the lack with the Antileon...but i did learn something from Goldmund (though i would never choose it over Antileon) and now finally appreciate what i learned in the new Colosseum. One man's experience.

 

[caesar]

I too, like Fernando/Flez007, have owned the Gryphon Antileon. Here is where i come out:

1. My favorite amps are all class A SS: Gryphon Antileon, Gryphon Colosseum, Forte 4, Boulder (slightly different voicing but still like just not as much), older Krell...i have heard the Krell250 a long time ago
2. On the 'dark' point, i find that the Gryphon Antileon does everything so well from top to bottom you really just enjoy music.
3. HOWEVER, I finally got the 'dark' v 'light' comment when i compared the Gryphon Antileon in my system to an older Goldmund which had sensational treble but otherwise did not compare to the Gryphon.

What happened is that the entire treble range literally felt like someone widened the lights on stage to include the violins, piccolos, etc...but NOT in a way that was less natural, that was more 'strident' or overtly detailed...more of a focus where suddenly you were able to pay as much as attention and enjoy the piccolos as the mid-strings, vocals, upper and lower bass.

That taught me something...i finally understood from the Goldmund what the Antileon did well and perhaps where string quartets had a more mid/bass focus than perhaps the original music might have.

Enter the Gryphon Colosseum...this piece of equipment captures all of the characteristics that i love about the Gryphon Antileon (and the Krell KSA250 and Forte 4)...and relights the treble area with an equally pure tonality that has the same depth of tone and note that i love about the rest of the music spectrum.

In the end, i never ever felt the lack with the Antileon...but i did learn something from Goldmund (though i would never choose it over Antileon) and now finally appreciate what i learned in the new Colosseum. One man's experience.

Nice concrete example. I always thought much of the darkness was due to room issues and a lack of bass trapping.

 

[fas42]

I think it takes lots of power and/or high efficiency speakers to come close to do justice to wind instruments playing back at realistic levels. When you hear wind instruments in person and up close, the power they project is unreal. It’s hard to believe that one guy blowing into a wind instrument could be so loud, but it is. The Krell gear is capable of making the instruments sound live. If this is the sound of *dark,* I guess I like dark.

Mark, that's an excellent example of the quality of realism that I focus on, as I mentioned in the other thread.

Frank

 

[Peter]

I too, like Fernando/Flez007, have owned the Gryphon Antileon. Here is where i come out:

1. My favorite amps are all class A SS: Gryphon Antileon, Gryphon Colosseum, Forte 4, Boulder (slightly different voicing but still like just not as much), older Krell...i have heard the Krell250 a long time ago
.

While not really germane to the whole discussion, I believe that the output of the Boulder amplifiers is balanced but Class A/B. Imagine the 2050 monoblocks pushing out 1000watts in Class A...they might well cause a brown-out in your area of town...I bet when your 160w Gryphon Colosseum is switched into it's Hi Bias mode (ie: straight Class A) your electric meter is just smokin' outside..

 

[LL21]

Nice concrete example. I always thought much of the darkness was due to room issues and a lack of bass trapping.

Hi Caesar, no doubt there are probably many things that affect treble/darkness. in my personal case, i find that room issues and bass trapping affect how the treble can feel 'closed in'. This is where the treble seems veiled or shut. This is different from what i personally experienced with the Antileon vs the Colosseum (in the exact same system...my home). In the case of Antileon the treble is not closed in at all. It is there and clean and extended, but perhaps the high treble note do not have the same purity of tone, deep body of the mids/bass. In comparing Antileon v Colosseum (dark vs light), the unique purity of tonality in the Antileon's mids/bass, the 'depth'/body of each note...was finally translated in the Colosseum to the treble as well.

With the Colosseum, it finally dawned on me that while purity of tonality in the mids/bass fills a room with a rich smooth sonorous music, purity of tonality in the high treble fills the room with a very lively vibrancy...not a peaky load of 'pings/tings' which some amps do to mimic extended treble. Instead, the Colosseum delivers very high notes as very three-dimensional and equally rich...but because it is higher registers, the Colosseum treble notes also give the sense of 'soaring' and hanging in the air in a way that adds real vibrancy to the upper registers of the music. The result is that the musical passage seems more evenly balanced in the rich mids and deep articulated bass as in the soaring highs...and you end up listening to music slightly differently, because the treble is an equal partner in tonal purity to the mids and bass.

i have no idea if that makes any sense to anyone else, but it is the best way i can find to write/describe what i heard when i compared the two amps and first realized the dark v light thing.

 

[LL21]

While not really germane to the whole discussion, I believe that the output of the Boulder amplifiers is balanced but Class A/B. Imagine the 2050 monoblocks pushing out 1000watts in Class A...they might well cause a brown-out in your area of town...I bet when your 160w Gryphon Colosseum is switched into it's Hi Bias mode (ie: straight Class A) your electric meter is just smokin' outside..

Hi Peter. Thanks...i always thought Boulder had a different voice from the other pure Class A amps i always liked. I still like the boulder, just not as much. Did not realize it may not be pure Class A. In any event, yes, i always have the Gryphon in pure Class A (High Bias), and i figure it is one my indulgence. I am a city boy so no car...tend to walk most places on weekends so carbon footprint okay i suppose.

 

[Peter]

Hi Peter. Thanks...i always thought Boulder had a different voice from the other pure Class A amps i always liked. I still like the boulder, just not as much. Did not realize it may not be pure Class A. In any event, yes, i always have the Gryphon in pure Class A (High Bias), and i figure it is one my indulgence. I am a city boy so no car...tend to walk most places on weekends so carbon footprint okay i suppose.

I've always enjoyed listening to the Gryphon gear - it's great stuff IMHO. I'm hoping the new Pandora/Mephisto pairing will be actively displayed at Munich - the Mephisto stereo & Mephisto monos have just recently been added to the Gryphon website - now 200 watts of Class A bliss !!

 

[NorthStar]

'Dark', can it also refer to 'dry'?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

'Dark', can it also refer to 'dry'?

Typically the opposite, I think...

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) My backup is a Rowland Model 5 which I've had for some 25 years. It is also pretty detailed but with a different character. Compared to the Pass, highs sound rolled off slightly, and bass is not as extended and slightly boomy around 40-60hz (perception, it measures flat). Perhaps somewhat dark, but still a nice listen, just not as much to hear. Sound stage not as convincing. No idea how either of these would compare to the KSA-250, but I'd expect the Krell to easily better the Rowland, and probably be very close to the Pass if not bettering it in some ways.

--Bill

The Rowland model 5 is an example of three different amplifiers in one model ...

The original version (non balanced) was not dark in my opinion, but a little rolled off and boomy as you say. The next version (balanced with FETs) seemed more detailed, better bass definition, but sometimes more dark - not being able to express nuance and rhythm as the first version. The Mk3 version using the trans-impedance modules was the darkest of them - IMHO the amplifier lost its original sound and became less involving.

BTW, you had to use it with the Coherence One preamplfier to knwow how good the Model 5 amplifier was!

 

[bblue]

The Rowland model 5 is an example of three different amplifiers in one model ...

The original version (non balanced) was not dark in my opinion, but a little rolled off and boomy as you say. The next version (balanced with FETs) seemed more detailed, better bass definition, but sometimes more dark - not being able to express nuance and rhythm as the first version. The Mk3 version using the trans-impedance modules was the darkest of them - IMHO the amplifier lost its original sound and became less involving.

BTW, you had to use it with the Coherence One preamplfier to knwow how good the Model 5 amplifier was!

Mine is the second one and has been back to Rowland a couple of times for 'upgrades'.

I have a C1 and never regarded it as anything spectacular for sound. It was ok, but not exceptional IMO. The phono preamp stage was probably the best thing about it.

But now I can't even use it because of Rowland repair incompetance. Even Jeff himself has failed (completely) to make this right. One channel of the phono goes dead when hot. I have to operate the preamp with the cover removed completely to keep it running. Even then it's no comparison to the Pass XP-15 so I've pretty much abandoned it.

And will never purchase a JRDG product again.

--Bill

 

[microstrip]

Mine is the second one and has been back to Rowland a couple of times for 'upgrades'.

I have a C1 and never regarded it as anything spectacular for sound. It was ok, but not exceptional IMO. The phono preamp stage was probably the best thing about it.

But now I can't even use it because of Rowland repair incompetance. Even Jeff himself has failed (completely) to make this right. One channel of the phono goes dead when hot. I have to operate the preamp with the cover removed completely to keep it running. Even then it's no comparison to the Pass XP-15 so I've pretty much abandoned it.

And will never purchase a JRDG product again.

--Bill

I was addressing only the phono performance of the C1 and M5 used as a set. And I have to tell I listened to them sounding great.

Surely these units are dated, I would not compare the phono of the C1 with the ARC Phono REF2 or your XP25. We must locate equipment in their time (a risky affirmation when some people in WBF feel electronics was perfect 30 years ago, and nothing improved significantly since then )

I am astonished that you have this problem with the phono. I had a similar one years ago and was easily solved - I selectively pointed an hair gun to the modules, found the faulty one and replaced it. Ten minutes job and a few dollars for a new module, surely. All the signal electronics of the C1 are located in 8 plug in modules.

As usually experiences of people are different with service issues - one of my friends had a problem with a Model 3 module and they manufactured one on request, as it was not available any more. Not bad for a 23 years old amplifier!

 

[bblue]

I was addressing only the phono performance of the C1 and M5 used as a set. And I have to tell I listened to them sounding great.

Agreed.

Surely these units are dated, I would not compare the phono of the C1 with the ARC Phono REF2 or your XP25. We must locate equipment in their time (a risky affirmation when some people in WBF feel electronics was perfect 30 years ago, and nothing improved significantly since then )

I am astonished that you have this problem with the phono. I had a similar one years ago and was easily solved - I selectively pointed an hair gun to the modules, found the faulty one and replaced it. Ten minutes job and a few dollars for a new module, surely. All the signal electronics of the C1 are located in 8 plug in modules.

Right, and I know which module it is. But that doesn't help if they claim not to have any for replacement.

I had originally sent it in to have the defective module replaced (in the phono four), and while there change it from MC to MM input. When they called to say it was ready I was suspicious about the charges (too low) so asked to talk to the tech. He said the unit had been repaired and brought to specs. But had completely ignored my request to have the MC input changed to MM. So I told him to do what I had asked him to both in the instructions I shipped with the unit and at least two emails I had sent. When I finally received it I noted that they had replaced all four modules (according to the invoice) but the heat sensitive module was still there and in the same channel! I talked to the tech again who had no explanation, and then to Jeff who concluded it must have been coincidence that one of the MM modules (last that they had in stock) was defective in the same way, and somehow had been placed in the same channel. And then never checked for 24 hours for thermal stability.

Personally, I think two of the modules they 'replaced' were actually the ones already in there, but relabeled, and that's why the defect on the same channel showed up. Anyway, Jeff *promised* he would come up with a solution and send me some replacement modules. After two months I called several times, and strangely he was 'out of the office' for every call, and of course never called back or followed through. That is seriously questionable behavior in my estimation. A reputable business or individual would never behave like that.

As usually experiences of people are different with service issues - one of my friends had a problem with a Model 3 module and they manufactured one on request, as it was not available any more. Not bad for a 23 years old amplifier!

That's great! But I suspect the sharks circling the water saw more 'green' than in my case.

My only choice now is to try un-potting the module and replace the DC servo chip (which Jeff said was the cause). I may do that someday but right now have enough to do without fiddling with it.

--Bill

 

[andromedaaudio]

Dark .....i like it ,...Levinson , i have expirience with the 431 and the 432 , i like the 432 more , very good amps at a modest price in my opinion.
I have not much expirience with 33h and 33 as most dealers here didnt/dont like ML very much .
I might buy a 33 or 33H as a second amp(try out and also a Cat poweramp , and keep just one in the end .
The krells are also very good , but the levinson had character , the krell has " nothing " .

I also would like to buy a 326 S in the future and compare it to the CAT , just keeping yourself busy i guess.
I still mis my levinson power on/ popsound


HJ

 

[LL21]

'Dark', can it also refer to 'dry'?

Dark as opposed to light. Dry as opposed to liquid. I tend to think of dry sound as where you get the technical detailing of the sound, but it is just the patterns, the beat of the sound, but perhaps it does not feel alive, smooth, 'liquid', mellifluous.