David Karmeli's Natural Sound in Utah

[Folsom]

I find that spherical horns tend to beam more than the sectorial or bi-radial horns used in the Vitavox, TAD or Hartsfield. One of the weakest points of my old Avantgarde Uno's IMO.

Makes perfect sense. Spherical were designed more for gain originally than really understanding of getting good power response. Ironically square-ish horns can have a very round wavefront that is very even (and expanding more), and spherical can have a very directional flatter beam. It seems counter-intuitive but if designed right you can control what you're getting.

 

[BruceD]

Excellent and thoughtful presentation Peter of your trip to Audio Nirvana--such an Aladin's cave of Jewels to savour--Kudos!

The videos portrayed the sonics well and one tended to smooth over any room anomalies and immersed with the purity of the Music!

Seems as if it has whetted your appetite for diving into the world of SETS and Horns--good luck!

I have friend with the Micro TT --I cannot recall if it is the 8000 though--superb sound with the FR66SS--you will be blessed indeed!

Good Listening,

BruceD

 

[KeithR]

I find that spherical horns tend to beam more than the sectorial or bi-radial horns used in the Vitavox, TAD or Hartsfield. One of the weakest points of my old Avantgarde Uno's IMO.

what's interesting is that AGs whole point was dumping the horn in a cabinet type design from decades prior. i assume there must be benefits but maybe @Folsom knows.

 

[Folsom]

what's interesting is that AGs whole point was dumping the horn in a cabinet type design from decades prior. i assume there must be benefits but maybe @Folsom knows.

Well we certainly shouldn't say all early horns were compromise free... Look at the size of the bionars are to have an actual horned midrange. We're also familiar with the horn vocal sound on tight gain conicals. It's also not like everyone likes horn sound anyways.

The question is sort of like asking why did people bother with making transistor amps.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Well we certainly shouldn't say all early horns were compromise free

All horns i have ever heard are not compromise free .
Horns : good for jazz vocals and classical
No way i would ever swap . having both cones and horns in the house may be yes .
One design specifically for certain music.
But i certainly wouldnt wanna miss:
speech , piano and house music on my speakers.
Decay of notes of piano music on a hpl phenolic resin design is something else .
I could never hear a horn made of wood do it to that extent.

Ps ddk s system will obviously have other strengths that a conesystem doesnt have i realize that.

i would of course love to hear ddk s system , but would it significantly change my mind, i dont think so .
If i had a different musical taste it might be a different story.
To each his own

 

[audioquattr]

Very nice report Peter, i really enjoyed reading it. Also great pictures and video's! Very interesting to see a completely different system and approach as most people have, i really like it, repect and kudos to DDK.

Many congrats to your new iconic turntable Peter and what a great way for you to get it and to learn everything about it, enjoy it in good health.

 

[microstrip]

Actually the motors are pretty similar the difference is in the tts themselves. There were different generations of each version too. SX8000 solid platters were of a completely different design and sounded somewhat different from the hollow vacuum versions. SX-8000II has a heavier plinth, different overall design and has higher quality materials in its construction. Sonically one is the evolution of the other, more resolution and more natural sound, AF1 is different from both sonically.

david

Curious, I got the idea the motors were different from a few pages I consulted sometime ago.
For example https://13audio.com/2014/01/19/some-serious-turntable-motors/ show two very different types of SX 8000 motor. The SX8000 and the SX8000 II manuals show different motor units.

What type of motor is Peter getting?

 

[MadFloyd]

Wonderful report... and I absolutely love the videos. Obviously the system would sound better live but I'm impressed enough by the sound in the videos! This may be the first time I've heard a system with a Lamm preamp sound good (I once heard the ML2 and was blown away but it was with a different preamp and anytime I've heard a Lamm preamp it was not with SET amps). In any case, my overall impression (as best one can have via video) is that David's system is right up there. There's a big difference from what I hear in these videos vs the ones you've recorded at your house and if this is the direction you are pursuing I commend you for it.

 

[PeterA]

Wonderful report... and I absolutely love the videos. Obviously the system would sound better live but I'm impressed enough by the sound in the videos! This may be the first time I've heard a system with a Lamm preamp sound good (I once heard the ML2 and was blown away but it was with a different preamp and anytime I've heard a Lamm preamp it was not with SET amps). In any case, my overall impression (as best one can have via video) is that David's system is right up there. There's a big difference from what I hear in these videos vs the ones you've recorded at your house and if this is the direction you are pursuing I commend you for it.

Thank you Ian. I also like the videos very much, although I did play the music too loudly.

I assure you that the various Lamm combinations I heard at David’s house in the four different systems all sounded superb.

I look back at the various components I’ve owned and I am now convinced that there were many I did not hear optimized because I did not prioritize the importance of set up.

David has the most complete system/room/power integration effort that I’ve ever seen. It is truly an A to Z whole system approach. And even though the room is spectacular, it is not a dedicated room, and it is full of a lot of stuff and very comfortable with many different areas in which to sit and enjoy good sound.

 

[Tango]

Wonder if Al M's system sounds 50X, hell make it 100X better than David's daughter's system in the video. David doesn't know how to construct a natural system, his daughters do.

 

[wil]

Thank you Ian. I also like the videos very much, although I did play the music too loudly.

I

What db levels do you think you were playing?

 

[PeterA]

What db levels do you think you were playing?

I really don’t know. David might have a better sense of it. I would say 80s with peaks in the 90s.

It did not sound loud because the music was so clean and undistorted. In my own system I generally increase the volume by 5 to 10 DB when I make a recording because it better captures the sound of the system. In David’s system this might’ve been the wrong strategy but I was not making recordings listening and assessing them before I made that the next ones. Time was running out and I just wanted to make some recordings quickly.

 

[ddk]

Curious, I got the idea the motors were different from a few pages I consulted sometime ago.
For example https://13audio.com/2014/01/19/some-serious-turntable-motors/ show two very different types of SX 8000 motor. The SX8000 and the SX8000 II manuals show different motor units.

What type of motor is Peter getting?

You're looking at the case not what's inside. AFAIK both motors were sourced from Panasonic. Peter's getting RY-5500 II which matches SX-8000 II turntable he's getting.

david

 

[Al M.]

Wonder if Al M's system sounds 50X, hell make it 100X better than David's daughter's system in the video. David doesn't know how to construct a natural system, his daughters do.

Don't worry, Tango, I have decided not to comment on videos in this thread. That includes commenting on comments on videos as well .

I enjoy Peter's descriptions of his experience, and congratulations to David on his systems, as well as to Peter on his new turntable!

 

[tima]

The internet tells me the Vitavox CN191 is still in production. Does anyone have experience with these? What sort of room requirements do they need, besides a room with corners. ;-)

Vitavox CN191

The CN191 is a substantial corner horn which has its roots in 1949 when it was first designed, yet it can still offer a musical performance that is practically unmatched for speed, scale and resolution.

These speakers are two way horns, using massively built Alnico mid range compression drivers coupled to wooden mid range horns. Frequencies below 500Hz are dealt with by a 15 inch driver in a corner bass horn enclosure that uses the rooms walls to extend the bass response. The sensitivity of the system is an immense 105dB meaning amplifiers with just a watt or twos output will suffice in most circumstances, which results in ultra low distortion, maximum energy retrieval and practically complete dynamic contrast.

As standard they are finished in Walnut veneer, other finishes are available but may be subject to a premium

Vitavox CN-191 Classic in Walnut: £46,520
Vitavox CN-191 Classic in Walnut with side Baffles: £48,804

 

[ddk]

The internet tells me the Vitavox CN191 is still in production. Does anyone have experience with these? What sort of room requirements do they need, besides a room with corners. ;-)

View attachment 74933

They’re reproductions the person making them is also reproducing Tannoy Autographs the difference here is that he acquired some tooling for Vitavox speakers back around 2000 and is making the drivers too. I never heard a repro pair to know what they sound like but I have heard the Tannoys and they’re off even using vintage speakers.

david

 

[rbbert]

Really nice write-up and photos Peter. One thing I find fascinating is how you and others who have visited David describe a nice, interesting and meticulous fellow, so at odds with his internet persona which is often just the opposite

 

[ddk]

Really nice write-up and photos Peter. One thing I find fascinating is how you and others who have visited David describe a nice, interesting and meticulous fellow, so at odds with his internet persona which is often just the opposite

Ever look at yourself? What you read here is interaction with good intelligent people sliming in here like this to take a jab is indicative of who you are and why our exchanges go south.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

One thing I find fascinating is how you and others who have visited David describe a nice, interesting and meticulous fellow, so at odds with his internet persona which is often just the opposite

David's posts reflect the same "nice, interesting and meticulous fellow" we know in person.

 

[PeterA]

Really nice write-up and photos Peter. One thing I find fascinating is how you and others who have visited David describe a nice, interesting and meticulous fellow, so at odds with his internet persona which is often just the opposite

rbbert, that is a very astute observation. I don’t know the reason for this perception, but I think it has to do with the fact that some people don’t like how he questions the status quo or conventional audiophile wisdom.

David is offering an alternative approach to what is promoted in the magazines and how we discuss our perception of what we hear by rejecting the audiophile glossary of terms and by not breaking the music down into bits and pieces. I am here to learn. I find this alternative way of thinking about the hobby quite fascinating. I understand full well that it is not for everyone, but exposure to different ideas, some considered quite radical, is interesting.

David is one of the most genuine and friendly people I’ve ever met in my life. He has strong opinions which I think are coming from his vast experience in the hobby. Frankly, I find his directness quite refreshing. We cannot control how other people respond to the way we express ourselves.

I think a careful reading of David’s audio forum responses will show that he remains on topic and addresses the subject at hand. This is much more helpful then some of the completely off-topic commentary we get from others.

I’ve learned much from his writings, the conversations we’ve had over the telephone, and our discussions in person.