Degritter ultrasonic record cleaner

Hi y’all, just a few words on what I think is a worthy alternative to the Audio Desk Systeme and KLAudio ultrasonic cleaners.

http://degritter.com/media-kit/

I’ve been a beta tester on the Degritter for the last few weeks, and am happy to offer my opinions and answer any qs for those interested.

I believe official launch is in early May, and at this stage after a couple of quibbles in day to day use, I’m planning to keep my unit, it’s been a pretty good success, and invaluable addition to day to day life as a vinyl addict.
 
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Has anyone tried the new Degritter cleaning fluid with the black label? I’ve cleaned a bunch of records using it, and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.
 
Has anyone tried the new Degritter cleaning fluid with the black label? I’ve cleaned a bunch of records using it, and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.
Try just a water rinse.
There will be some cationic surfactant adhering to the record but it’s supposed to for antistatic effect.

The one to be careful of is if there’s any residual anionic surfactant on the disc as it will make something very difficult to shift when it reacts with the cationic surfactant in the new cleaner.
 
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Try just a water rinse.
There will be some cationic surfactant adhering to the record but it’s supposed to for antistatic effect.

The one to be careful of is if there’s any residual anionic surfactant on the disc as it will make something very difficult to shift when it reacts with the cationic surfactant in the new cleaner.

For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?
 
I always rinse a record that goes in a machine without rinse. Chemicals are left on the record. Drying does not remove them. Its bakes them in.

Rinsing is super easy. Get a Zero Water from anywhere. They are all over. Set it on a table and put a 5 gallon bucket below. Crack the dispenser as little or much as you like and rinse the record clean.

A easier way may be, get the zero water. Also get a spin clean. Don't waste time clamping the record nto the spin clean device. Get a 6 inch piece of 1/4" aluminum rod. Slip it through the spindle and drop it i to the spin.clean. Use hands to spin the record.

Records can be put on a rack to air dry after Zero water. I usually use microfiber non shedding cloth to get the heavy water off, then let the rest airdry.
Wear rubber gloves to keep oil from hands contaminating the record and micro cloth.
Tiger cloths on amazon are cheap.and work well.
 
For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?
Reading the various cleaning fluid’s ingredients might help bearing in mind not to mix cationic and anionic surfactants might help keep the veil effect from occurring.
If using the black label stuff give your records a pre rinse with water if they’ve been cleaned before. I’d use my VPI for this rather than the degritter so there’s no build up in the rinsing water, though if you change the water frequently it’ll probably be OK.
 
For the benefit of those of us who didn't study chemistry, can you elaborate?

Anionic and cationic are words that can be used to characterize the electrical charge (+/-) of various cleaning compounds and thus describe the surfaces (+/-) that attract them. Cationic types (+) are are attracted to negatively charged surfaces and used to achieve anti-static properties. Anionic types (-) are used in soaps. Yeti is suggesting not to mix the two types. Unless you want to learn about the chemistry of cleaning compounds, I wouldn't worry about them further.

My suggestion is to take a pass on the Degritter cleaning fluid or at least experiment with alternatives proven successful.

- assuming the Degritter people have not given warnings against a specific alternative to their own 'Degritter cleaning fluid, consider using Tergitol 15-S-9 surfactant rather than the Degritter additive.

Tergitol 15-S-9 is pretty much the go-to cleaning compound that you add to the water in your Degritter's (and other RCMs) wash tank. (Fwiw, it is non-ionic with no net charge one way or the other.) Very little is needed and a small bottle (see link) will last years. The amount to use is based on how much water is in the Degritter wash tank and whether you do a rinse (very highly recommended) or not.

The Degritter tank is fairly small, ~1400ml. If you do not rinse, try 2 0.04ml drops or Tergitol 15-S-9, and if you do rinse, try 3 0.04ml drops. If you get a lot of foam, cut back by 1 drop. You can get precision droplets using the Nalgene 2oz drop bottle. This info comes from Neil's 'bible' which you can download as a .pdf here. See section XIV.8.5.

PS - I didn't study chemistry either. :)
 
and now I think I hear some veil. I used around 1.5 ml of the fluid, the program with 4 revolutions, 2 tanks, the second one with IPA. Maybe I am imagining things, will have to do further testing.
Try 1-ml and see if that removes the veiling. If not, keep in mind as @Yeti has stated, it contains a cationic surfactant that is intended to leave some residue; to leave an anti-static coating. FYI, RCA perfected an internal anti-static for records as part of the composition in 1960 - RCA Engineer Magazine, 1960 Issue 10-11, Anti-static Phonograph Records by G. P. Humfeld https://www.worldradiohistory.com/ARCHIVE-RCA/RCA-Engineer/1960-10-11.pdf.

Expanding upon what @tima has said, cationic surfactants have two primary benefits - they are extremely hygroscopic and so they are effective anti-static agents. Their residue is very effective in pulling moisture from the air (generally diminishes below about 30% relative humidity) and the water layer that forms that is ionic and dissipates static. They are common in hair care products. Cationic surfactants are also very effective anti-bacterial agents that can kill many bacteria and viruses. Just about every water-based spray 'cleaner' advertised as anti-bacterial contains one or more cationic surfactants. However, cationic surfactants are not easily rinsed (which makes them good for their intended purpose); are poor cleaning agents, and they are 'generally' incompatible with anionic surfactants, and under the right proportions anionic & cationic surfactants can form a white type of paste - i.e., the infamous Kirmuss white paste is likely a similar reaction.

Anionic surfactants are the backbone of the cleaning industry. Just about every dish and laundry detergent, the 1st (and sometimes 2nd and 3rd) ingredient is an anionic surfactant. But to be effective they need to be used at relatively high concentrations often 5X to 10X that used for nonionic surfactants. Nonionic surfactants are good as emulsifiers - they hold water and oil together. They are often combined with anionic surfactants in detergents, and you will see nonionic surfactants common in cosmetics. That is how the smooth oil-based creams keep from separating, and as cleaners are very effective in removing oils. Nonionic surfactants are compatible with all surfactants.

Note that all surfactants, are hygroscopic to some degree with cationic being the most. But the residue from each can be very different. Anionic surfactants start as flakes and the residue has the consistency of bar-soap; but they go back into solution relatively easily. Most of the nonionic surfactants that we would use, start as light weight oil, dry as lightweight oil film and again go back into solution very easily. The final residue on a record surface can over years take on the consistency heavy grease from repeated layers from a spray cleaner on say a diskwasher type brush.

With this very basic snap-shot of surfactants, the likelihood of your veiling issue being attributed to an anionic & cationic surfactant residue reaction is very remote. First, you would see junk on your stylus. Second, the proportions are not right. The 1.4-L volume of the Degritter and the ultrasonics provide a lot of dilution and do not setup the conditions that Kirmuss can do when spraying a very small amount of 'cleaner' on a large surface.

FYI - when using just nonionic surfactants, as the book says, with the DG, there is risk of foam, and you are limited to how much surfactant you can add before too much foam develops. FYI - anionic surfactants produce lots of foam when agitated. This new DG Cleaner is a very complicated product, and has many features, including low-foam, and as complicated as it is, there 'may' be some compromise in using. But, to reiterate, try 1-ml and see if the problem persists.

Good Luck,

Hope this is of some help.

Take care,
Neil
 

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