Depth, the final frontier.

[DaveyF]

Tonight I had a chance to listen to my new rolled in NOS Mullard CV4003 tubes ( Thank you, Uncle Kevin) in my CAT line section.
Along with the new Nordost Frey speaker cables, the system was SINGING

The biggest improvement that I noticed was in the portrayal of depth. In the past, I have always felt that this aspect separated the men from the boys, so to speak. Many systems sound good BUT have a difficulty portraying depth and particularly the precise layering of depth; wherein the instruments and more importantly the musicians are clearly spaced upon the stage and one can hear and place them in a deep soundstage.

Tonight, I was pleased to hear that my system was portraying a portrait of true depth. Listening to Muddy Waters "Folk Singer" on MFSL, I was clearly able to hear his voice set several feet behind the guitar player on the left side of the stage and when the music warranted it, a very clear and precise layering of how far apart the instruments were to each other on the stage.

Many times in the past, I have heard good systems that could not quite get this aspect correct. IMHO, this is so very important in the ability of one's system to create the illusion of real instruments on a stage.

It's an eye opener IF you can get your system to accurately recreate this aspect of reproduction. Certainly, for me it has been an ongoing struggle that I have finally conquered. Therefore, depth is IMO the final and perhaps most important frontier to overcome in our systems, your thoughts?

 

[fas42]

Huge depth is indeed a signature of the system working well, in my experience it is an aspect that automatically rears its very pleasant head when all's well. So it is not so much a frontier (sorry, Jim!), but a signpost, a marker that good progress is being made.

One of my system "busters" in this regard is the original Led Zeppelin I on CD: this has huge space, and depth going about a quarter of a mile away! Or so it feels!! :b

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Huge depth is indeed a signature of the system working well, in my experience it is an aspect that automatically rears its very pleasant head when all's well. So it is not so much a frontier (sorry, Jim!), but a signpost, a marker that good progress is being made.

One of my system "busters" in this regard is the original Led Zeppelin I on CD: this has huge space, and depth going about a quarter of a mile away! Or so it feels!! :b

Frank

Frank, I have to try that Led Zep 1 CD, which label are you referring to?

BTW, since you are 'down under' I'm not sure that we get the same pressing/labels
here in the 'States" as you do. I know for sure that many LP's that we used to get here are completely
different pressings to the one's that you got there, or for that matter in many parts of Europe.

There are even different labels/pressings for the Far East, Russia and the Middle East countries....
One of the interesting things you learn if you ever collect vinyl....which is the best pressing and from which country.

 

[fas42]

The standard Atlantic release, 240 031. It was manufactured in Germany, had no special remastering or anything: liner notes are non-existant. Remasterings may have lost this quality in attempts to pick up in other areas: I have heard a couple of LP versions on a non-ambitious setup, and these were a complete failure in conveying depth.

When replayed well, this album is an amazing experience: for my money, blows Dark Side of The Moon into the weeds as regards being a powerful, and majestic auditory experience -- at the end you have to go away and have a good drink to build up reserves of energy for the next album to be listened to!

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Frank, Ok that's now on my "to get" list. Better than DSOTM, must be pretty special.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frank, Ok that's now on my "to get" list. Better than DSOTM, must be pretty special.

Careful with your money, there, Davey. The original Atlantic Zep CDs are broadly considered to be very dull, flat, transfers of, well, probably a copy of a copy of a copy of a master made for vinyl. They are, in fact, infamous for their badness. I can't vouch for the German versions, but I have the American versions and while they aren't enough to keep me from listening to Zep, they live up to their reputation well enough. Lots of reverb? Absolutely. Lots of "depth?" Not so much. This is Frank's tweaks making silk purses from sow's ears. If you haven't welded your mains cable to the wall and gotten everyone in your neighborhood to shut off their cell phones this one probably won't compare well to your MFSL of DSOTM.

Put a mailing address in my private messages box and I'll send you the LZ 1 disc so you can hear it for yourself before you buy.

Tim

 

[flez007]

DaveyF - I agree with you on the importnace of depth and center image recreation as one of the fine aspects that separate a HiFi system from a HiEnd one - now... for some this is a checked issue (at least for me since Avalon speakers have a trademark on this) and some rooms help more than others in generating this "trick". As familiar as I am with SFGH speakers in my room, I would say that the next big challenge could be dynamics and low frequency extension, am I correct?

Congratulations on your system upgrades and achievemnts, enjoy!

 

[JackD201]

I'm more of a "you are there" rather than a "they are here" type of guy so typically I'm not enamored by having everything going on behind the speaker plane. I like the illusion of things jumping out at me when the music calls for it. There's lots of ways to get more depth from the physical, electrical to the acoustical given good channel balance to begin with. All have to do with the balance between the attack, sustains and decays. Softer attacks vis a vis the rest of the sonic envelope usually will give a better sense of depth until it's softened to much and things fall apart or you fall asleep whichever comes first The milder attacks of mullards are great for this without having to move your speakers or add absorption on your front wall.

Congratulations on your new acquisition and the resulting bliss Davey!

 

[flez007]

I'm more of a "you are there" rather than a "they are here" type of guy so typically I'm not enamored by having everything going on behind the speaker plane. I like the illusion of things jumping out at me when the music calls for it. There's lots of ways to get more depth from the physical, electrical to the acoustical given good channel balance to begin with. All have to do with the balance between the attack, sustains and decays. Softer attacks vis a vis the rest of the sonic envelope usually will give a better sense of depth until it's softened to much and things fall apart or you fall asleep whichever comes first The milder attacks of mullards are great for this without having to move your speakers or add absorption on your front wall.

Congratulations on your new acquisition and the resulting bliss Davey!

You will hate my system then Jack!! (or fall sleep...)

 

[JackD201]

Somehow I feel you haven't gone too far my friend

 

[fas42]

Careful with your money, there, Davey. The original Atlantic Zep CDs are broadly considered to be very dull, flat, transfers of, well, probably a copy of a copy of a copy of a master made for vinyl. They are, in fact, infamous for their badness. I can't vouch for the German versions, but I have the American versions and while they aren't enough to keep me from listening to Zep, they live up to their reputation well enough. Lots of reverb? Absolutely. Lots of "depth?" Not so much. This is Frank's tweaks making silk purses from sow's ears. If you haven't welded your mains cable to the wall and gotten everyone in your neighborhood to shut off their cell phones this one probably won't compare well to your MFSL of DSOTM.

I will beg to differ (of course!), this is why the album is such an excellent test for a system's capabilities; if not up to scratch all that subtle low level information conveying the tremendous soundstaging is strangled, suffocated by system deficiencies. My friend's system, which has developed a long, long way over the time I've known him did an awful job of this album initially, and the LP side still has some way to go; plus the vinyl versions he has have the dynamics badly flattened. I haven't checked very recently how this album as CD goes for him, it will be a strong marker for progress made.

Why it will sound awful if not reproduced correctly is that the ear/brain tries ever so hard to sort out the "mess", the low level information mixed in with the distortion, but it's a no go zone. I agree wholeheartedly in one sense with Tim, this album can sound a shocker, which is why it is even more shocking when it's done "right". The one word that should come to mind when listening is "bigness", there should be a sense of immensity, with complete clarity.

Frank

 

[mep]

Tonight I had a chance to listen to my new rolled in NOS Mullard CV4003 tubes ( Thank you, Uncle Kevin) in my CAT line section.
Along with the new Nordost Frey speaker cables, the system was SINGING

Did they come in the white military boxes wrapped in brown tissue paper with a black plastic pin protector?

 

[JackD201]

Did they come in the white military boxes wrapped in brown tissue paper with a black plastic pin protector?

Funny how cardboard, paper and plastic discs can give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside

 

[RogerD]

I usually find that depth is recording dependent and the best recordings have multi layered depth with a dimensionality that is fun and intoxicating to listen to. Also isn't it possible to have a balance of foward projection and great depth also?

 

[fas42]

Also isn't it possible to have a balance of foward projection and great depth also?

Roger, I'm not quite sure of the forward projection thing, my personal experience is that the images and soundstaging always falls behind the speakers, assuming system working at top level. Yes, the energy of the performance projects forward into the room, but if I tune into what is creating a particular sound it is at the very most a bit behind the speaker. One way of describing it is that the sound carries with me as I walk away from directly in front of the speakers: with my back to the speakers as I walk away to quite some distance from the speakers there is no apparent change in the sound -- perhaps this is what some people mean when they say the sound fills the room ...?

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I usually find that depth is recording dependent and the best recordings have multi layered depth with a dimensionality that is fun and intoxicating to listen to. Also isn't it possible to have a balance of foward projection and great depth also?

Quite sane of,you, Roger. Depth is, of course, a.function of the recording. Many people attribute it to components, but of course the best the components can do is get out of the way.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

DaveyF - I agree with you on the importnace of depth and center image recreation as one of the fine aspects that separate a HiFi system from a HiEnd one - now... for some this is a checked issue (at least for me since Avalon speakers have a trademark on this) and some rooms help more than others in generating this "trick". As familiar as I am with SFGH speakers in my room, I would say that the next big challenge could be dynamics and low frequency extension, am I correct?

Congratulations on your system upgrades and achievemnts, enjoy!

Fernando, I have taken care of the low freq extension with the addition of a REL T5 Sub.
The change in the CAT elicited by the NOS Mullards, ( which did come in the white military box wrapped in brown tissue paper and with pin protectors...a nice touch, IMO) required me to change the settings for the REL. However, I think once again I have the REL dialed in and sounding sweet. Never felt that the GH's lacked dynamics, but then I do know that they require a fairly beefy amp upstream to portray dynamics. Wimpy SET's need not apply

 

[JackD201]

I usually find that depth is recording dependent and the best recordings have multi layered depth with a dimensionality that is fun and intoxicating to listen to. Also isn't it possible to have a balance of foward projection and great depth also?

Yes it is

 

[RogerD]

Yes it is

You bet it is:b

 

[RogerD]

Quite sane of,you, Roger. Depth is, of course, a.function of the recording. Many people attribute it to components, but of course the best the components can do is get out of the way.

Tim

I have to think the speakers matter. The same speakers with different preamps,amps,cables,and rooms,always had excellent depth.

p.s. My saneness must have been in a off moment.