NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
The audio representative @ the show asked Mickey respectfully and genuinely.
I'm a fan of intelligent and respectful people, that's all.

My Canadian citizenship has zero to do with anything, less than zero.
I'm proud to be me, a people from planet Earth. :)
 

Derainer

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
Apr 23, 2011
114
207
1,275
Germany
www.dereneville.de
Maybe I should apologize for being very bad and insecure in English conversation.

And when a man like Michael Fremer talks to me for the first time, my excitement is added.

It's all human - isn't it? So sorry again. But I promise improvement. ;)
 
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,626
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E. England
You're good, we're just having a little bit of fun. Keep up the good work.
 

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
3,510
4,831
1,255
Denmark
Maybe I should apologize for being very bad and insecure in English conversation.

And when a man like Michael Fremer talks to me for the first time, my excitement is added.

It's all human - isn't it? So sorry again. But I promise improvement. ;)
And i thought nobody recognized Fremer, my mistake, he is still a audio god, my bad:rolleyes: Your English is very good Reiner, as are your designs.
Keep up the good work !
 

BillWojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2015
31
32
248
Burlington, NJ
I'm not seeing the advantage of this compared to say my Yamaha PX-3 tonearm system. On both your system and mine the tonearm MUST be driven a little bit out of tangent before tracking correction will occur. Is this not true?

Granted, your system will pickup a smaller deviation from tangent than mine but it still is relying on the stylus to drag the tonearm out of tangent. On the Yamaha PX-3 the maximum it will be out of tangent is +or- 0.15 degree before correction occurs.

From what I understand you are using a more sophisticated way of measuring the tangency deviation and applying correction sooner. In both cases though, the stylus still has to drag the tonearm for it to be detected and corrected.

As a machine tool CNC repair technician I can appreciate the technology that you have incorporated in this system but I question the value of it. As I see it, you have basically created a more accurate version of what Yamaha created back in the early 1980's.

Lot's of folks on this forum will poo poo the Yamaha PX-3 because it only cost $600.00 back in 1982 and they have read bad things about linear trackers. And yes, some linear trackers did have problems with noise in the tracking motor transmissions feeding back into the tonearms.

Yamaha PX-3 do not have any such problems and are equipped with a very nice direct drive slot-less type motor. The earlier PX-2 and the ultra rare PX-1 were even better built.

If I have misunderstood the concept of how this works than please correct me. I'm all ears.

And BTW, I'm a huge fan of linear trackers, never understood reading the grooves with a pivoting arm when the masters are cut with a linear tracker. Kind of odd.

BillWojo
 

Derainer

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
Apr 23, 2011
114
207
1,275
Germany
www.dereneville.de
Dear Bill,
I am happy for you that you call a PX-3 your own. I would also like to wish you a PX-1.
Maybe you will find another one and will have a lot of fun with it.

It is like with the beautiful old automobiles. People maintain and care for them. They only wash it by hand.
And many people enjoy it - especially in today's fast world.

I could call over 35 years a 1951er Cadillac Sedan de Ville my own. At that time it cost only 6.000 US$.

b 04.JPG

This is my Lady --- I called her Cathy

b 08.JPG

It also had seat heating, electric windows, 5-speed automatic transmission and excellent air conditioning.
It had a beautiful tube radio with a great sound - you wouldn't believe it. :cool:
It had beautiful whitewall tires that are no longer available today.

With the sound of his big V-8 engine I enjoyed my friends and my whole neighborhood.
Most of all my gas station attendant was happy when I had to refuel.

When a policeman stopped me, it was only to sit down in this beautiful Classic-Car
and dream of the good old days for a short moment.

I drove over 30 weddings with it and I made many couples happy.

"My summary is that a Mercedes S-class of today, or a Bugatti, or a Maybach
are not much better either. They just roll across the streets - like my 51 Cadillac...
So there is no good reason to buy a modern car of today" :);)


with my best regards,
Rainer

P.S.
If you have more concrete interest in my technology, come and visit me
then we have time to talk shop.
I mean it.
 
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BillWojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2015
31
32
248
Burlington, NJ
My friend, that is one sweet automobile and would cause quite a stir at a car show even in the USA. By the way, check out Coker tires, they specialize in vintage replacement tires and should have them in your size. And yes, they have the big white wall as well, even in radial.

I take it you have a back ground in both engineering and manufacturing to design and build that tonearm. Not an easy feat by any means.

What are you using to measure the displacement of the arm, a laser? Another method is to use a metal target and measure the capacitance between the tonearm and target. That would have to be converted to a digital value for the control board using a ADC.

The emergence of CD's killed all the development that was going on in Japan for the best TT back in the early 80's. It was a race between manufactures and a source for much pride. Tables such as my Yamaha PX-3 were the last dying gasp, a shame because we were cheated out of the designs that the best engineers had to offer. I believe that you showed us what would have come forth if the CD revolution hadn't arrived. My hat is off to you sir!

BillWojo
 

Derainer

Industry Expert, VIP Donor
Apr 23, 2011
114
207
1,275
Germany
www.dereneville.de
Bill, thank you for your words,

please have a look at my second post in this thread. It describes how precise the electronic works.
The electronics is able to evaluate the feed tendencies, which the measuring laser delivers 100 times per second,
and works quasi foresighted.
This is the most modern technology of today.

best regards
Rainer
 

DerHannes

Member
Apr 7, 2019
4
21
10
59
Lippstadt, Germany
www.Dereneville.de
Dear Bill,
I am happy for you that you call a PX-3 your own. I would also like to wish you a PX-1.
Maybe you will find another one and will have a lot of fun with it.

It is like with the beautiful old automobiles. People maintain and care for them. They only wash it by hand.
And many people enjoy it - especially in today's fast world.

I could call over 35 years a 1951er Cadillac Sedan de Ville my own. At that time it cost only 6.000 US$.

View attachment 56955

This is my Lady --- I called her Cathy

View attachment 56956

It also had seat heating, electric windows, 5-speed automatic transmission and excellent air conditioning.
It had a beautiful tube radio with a great sound - you wouldn't believe it. :cool:
It had beautiful whitewall tires that are no longer available today.

With the sound of his big V-8 engine I enjoyed my friends and my whole neighborhood.
Most of all my gas station attendant was happy when I had to refuel.

When a policeman stopped me, it was only to sit down in this beautiful Classic-Car
and dream of the good old days for a short moment.

I drove over 30 weddings with it and I made many couples happy.

"My summary is that a Mercedes S-class of today, or a Bugatti, or a Maybach
are not much better either. They just roll across the streets - like my 51 Cadillac...
So there is no good reason to buy a modern car of today" :);)


with my best regards,
Rainer

P.S.
If you have more concrete interest in my technology, come and visit me
then we have time to talk shop.
I mean it.
I'm not seeing the advantage of this compared to say my Yamaha PX-3 tonearm system. On both your system and mine the tonearm MUST be driven a little bit out of tangent before tracking correction will occur. Is this not true?

Granted, your system will pickup a smaller deviation from tangent than mine but it still is relying on the stylus to drag the tonearm out of tangent. On the Yamaha PX-3 the maximum it will be out of tangent is +or- 0.15 degree before correction occurs.

From what I understand you are using a more sophisticated way of measuring the tangency deviation and applying correction sooner. In both cases though, the stylus still has to drag the tonearm for it to be detected and corrected.

As a machine tool CNC repair technician I can appreciate the technology that you have incorporated in this system but I question the value of it. As I see it, you have basically created a more accurate version of what Yamaha created back in the early 1980's.

Lot's of folks on this forum will poo poo the Yamaha PX-3 because it only cost $600.00 back in 1982 and they have read bad things about linear trackers. And yes, some linear trackers did have problems with noise in the tracking motor transmissions feeding back into the tonearms.

Yamaha PX-3 do not have any such problems and are equipped with a very nice direct drive slot-less type motor. The earlier PX-2 and the ultra rare PX-1 were even better built.

If I have misunderstood the concept of how this works than please correct me. I'm all ears.

And BTW, I'm a huge fan of linear trackers, never understood reading the grooves with a pivoting arm when the masters are cut with a linear tracker. Kind of odd.

BillWojo

Hi Bill,
Your Yamaha is a very cool, stylish device.
It is like with me my 30 years old VW Corrado.
I posted a fresh picture after it is refurnished for a price, higher than what I paid for it when it was new. :cool:
I love this car. OK, if I'm listening to my wife, I'm crazy. ;)
Corrado.jpg

Why do I tell this?

You are absolutely right, to control a position you need to check it and a deviation need to be corrected.
And exactly this is the point. The quality of the position is directly related to the accuracy of detection, which needs to be as good as possible.

I agree with you, for sure the Yamaha engineers created a device, limited by the technologies of those days as well as by the financial restrictions of the controllers from Yamaha.

We are developed a highly accurate, laser-controlled motion system with special stealth mode drivers.
With this environment, I developed a special closed-loop-control which permanently adjusts the speed of the arm in a big range down to a very very very low speed. But the movement will never stop, to avoid slip-stick noises (in case they could appear).
This leads out to the point of records which are not perfectly centered.
In this case, the arm normally has to change its direction.
We do have an SW implemented which is able to drive the arm according to read such kind of records, but the sound disadvantages coming from the record are worth compared to those coming from the wrong angle. So why to do it? Let's read the good records with the perfect technology. (We can discuss this :))

What I can tell you is, that all our products are limited only by the available technology of today.
We exclusively using state of the art, high-end technologies, respecting the actual knowledge of physics and nobel materials.
Even in case, we would produce a higher volume of this arms (which is not planned), it will never reach nor even come close to the price you paid for your whole device, simply because of the laser is more expensive. :)

Our aim is to check and stay on top of the physical and technological borders of today.
All our devices are the results out of this thinking.
Especially the DTT-X stand-alone Linear Trackers are, compared to my Corrado at least a Bentley or an S-Class.

Finally and honestly, we do not limit our self, our ideas and the chosen technology because of costs, which is a big advantage.
Who can say this, working in a bigger company?
Of course, we do not waste money, I'm coming from the automotive industry and exactly know what it means to balance technology and costs.
But in our the Dereneville projects, the focus and priorities are clear and 100% on technologies and possibilities.

Maybe my article is partly a bit off topic, but I wanted to write this because I understand and like your statement as well as your device.

Have a nice weekend and many greetings from Lippstadt...
...Hannes
 
Last edited:

BillWojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2015
31
32
248
Burlington, NJ
You still just have a device that works like my Yamaha. It needs to produce a deviation, even if its small to force it into correction. I think you should rename your device as the "Ultimate Linear Tracker', as that's what it is. The name
"Dereneville-Linear Scanning of the Grooves" is misleading as it doesn't scan
anything, it's reacting to the stylus being dragged and correcting for it. To scan the grooves would require an optical, no contact sensor.

The fact that it works so well is a testament to linear tracking technology. A well designed linear tracking tonearm will always sound better than a swing type tonearm as it is always in tangent. Those of us that run linear trackers have know this for years. How can a diamond that is canted in the groove produce perfectly what was cut with a linear tracking cutter. That IS how masters are cut, not with an antiquated swing arm.
I applaud what you have designed and manufactured, as I have stated, it's the ultimate linear tracking tonearm.

Have you looked into a capactive type measuring device? It was used years ago to align long machine tools. A thin wire was tensioned, on the centerline, say between the headstock and tailstock of a long lathe. A capacitive type sensor was mounted on the carriage and traversed the length of the bed. By reading the change in capacitance it could be calculated what the error was. This was a technology in use long before laser measuring devices became popular or affordable. To calculate sag in the long bed there were correction tables to use to compensate for the sag in the wire. I'm not an EE but I'm pretty sure the circuit was fairly simple and put out an analog voltage that was shown on a simple meter. An ADC could turn that into a digital output that could be handled by your controller. Might be far cheaper and just as accurate as your laser sensor. It's just a thought, most folks have never heard of this technology as it's quite old but worked quite well in it's day.

BillWojo
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,626
5,434
1,278
E. England
Bill, I acquired my Trans Fi Terminator air bearing LT arm in 2013, and have not looked back. A total triumph, I could not imagine moving back to pivoted (although I have huge affection for the SAEC506).
 

DerHannes

Member
Apr 7, 2019
4
21
10
59
Lippstadt, Germany
www.Dereneville.de
You still just have a device that works like my Yamaha. It needs to produce a deviation, even if its small to force it into correction. I think you should rename your device as the "Ultimate Linear Tracker', as that's what it is. The name
"Dereneville-Linear Scanning of the Grooves" is misleading as it doesn't scan
anything, it's reacting to the stylus being dragged and correcting for it. To scan the grooves would require an optical, no contact sensor.

The fact that it works so well is a testament to linear tracking technology. A well designed linear tracking tonearm will always sound better than a swing type tonearm as it is always in tangent. Those of us that run linear trackers have know this for years. How can a diamond that is canted in the groove produce perfectly what was cut with a linear tracking cutter. That IS how masters are cut, not with an antiquated swing arm.
I applaud what you have designed and manufactured, as I have stated, it's the ultimate linear tracking tonearm.

Have you looked into a capactive type measuring device? It was used years ago to align long machine tools. A thin wire was tensioned, on the centerline, say between the headstock and tailstock of a long lathe. A capacitive type sensor was mounted on the carriage and traversed the length of the bed. By reading the change in capacitance it could be calculated what the error was. This was a technology in use long before laser measuring devices became popular or affordable. To calculate sag in the long bed there were correction tables to use to compensate for the sag in the wire. I'm not an EE but I'm pretty sure the circuit was fairly simple and put out an analog voltage that was shown on a simple meter. An ADC could turn that into a digital output that could be handled by your controller. Might be far cheaper and just as accurate as your laser sensor. It's just a thought, most folks have never heard of this technology as it's quite old but worked quite well in it's day.

BillWojo
Hi Bill,
Nice to hear from you so fast.
Sure you are not an EE? :)

First, let me give you and spiritofmusic big hands for your statements about linear tracking ton arms. It is exactly fitting to what I think.

According to technologies which could be used to control positions.
In the very beginning, we thought about different technologies like optical, connective (resistance and DMS) and also capacity systems.
But there are either some disadvantages in the accuracy and/or reproducibility or possibilities for unwanted disturbances or side effects.
Finally, we decided on the laser because it is the
* most accurate and reproducible,
* long-time (life-time) stable,
* most robust and resistant against disturbances.

Let me add some word to capacity sensors which you mentioned.
Also, it is an old technology, it is not old-fashion and let me tell you, it is still in use.
HELLA, for instance, is using it in drive-by-wire throttle pedals in cars.
In BHTC we are using it in a different sense, in touchscreens which have to work in harsh environments.

In general, Rainer and I, we are perfectionists, and we are luckily in the position/condition to live our dream.
Our aim was and is to reach the absolute best result possible based on the actual available technology, to provide the last noticeable physical limit to our customers.

That's why Dereneville has not been founded to be a commercial orientated company.
Otherwise, all our projects normally had to be grounded already.

...Hannes
 
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BillWojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2015
31
32
248
Burlington, NJ
spirit of music, I agree 100%. I'd love to try an air bearing tonearm but it's a bit to finicky for me. To much dust with my cats and I don't trust myself. LOL They are elegant and I'm quite familiar with air bearings but the electro-mechanical LT tonearm just suits me better.

If I had the money to spare I wouldn't be ad versed to getting a Denereville myself. It is a beautiful design.

Derainer and DerHaines, I applaud both of you for making your dream possible. I'm sure for the lucky folks that can afford this tonearm, that the return will be very rewarding. I hope to one day see one at an audio show in my area.

BillWojo
 

CarlC

Member
Sep 10, 2019
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NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
"Improving the quality of the reproduced sound of a recording can be done by a higher rotational speed of the record. So there is quite a difference between the quality of sound when the same "master tape" is transferred to a 33 rpm or to a 45 rpm vinyl record (12 inch). Just because the modern MC cartridge is not skilled for the reproduction of all the details at 33 rpm. And the reason is simple: the detection of the movements of the stylus has to be done at the position of the stylus. Not at the end of the cantilever (that's fundamentally wrong when the LP rotates at 33 rpm)."
 

Loheswaran

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2014
437
101
273
Purely on the outside looking in can I just say/ask:

1. Does the designer take the view that the arm is the most determinative of sound quality?
2. Why such a limited run after 5 years development?
3. As a product - yes I can well accept its a leap forward - but I say (tongue in cheek) are there any plans to make one that is more aesthetically pleasing like say a Thales, Schroeder, an Air Force turntable or an SME for instance - I only say this because whilst I can't afford one, by the same token I can't afford a Patek Phillipe watch, but such premium products do tend to look great - BTW as an EMT 950 owner I get form follows function.
4. Any plans to make an ahem - more affordable version with trickle down technology that mortals like me can aspire to?

(I always bemoan that for audio high end to survive and flourish it needs to appeal to the wider market that buy expensive car, watches and jewellery - though I think that ought to be another thread so I will say no more)
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
How much are the most expensive cartridges, tonearms, turntables, motors, esoteric cables, power cords, speaker wires, electronic fuses, capacitors, circuit boards, ...?

Someone recently stole a toilet worth $5 million...made of 18 Karats gold.
 
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BillWojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2015
31
32
248
Burlington, NJ
The Dereneville tone arm will never be inexpensive to reproduce. There are several thousand dollars just in purchased parts, add in all the custom machining and careful assembly plus a markup so these fellows can recoup some of there lives (5 years) that were spent designing, testing and coming to market with it means it's going to be expensive.

As far as looks goes, it will always have the same basic shape and I don't have an issue with it. Can it be dressed up to look different? I'm sure it can but I'm a believer that form follows function as it should be.

As far as the limited sales, my guess is that both of these men are retired and want to move on after building a dream. Maybe someone else could purchase the plans and technology to keep it in production.

I'd love to see a company like Technics take it on. They could afford to reduce a bunch of precision machine components down to a small handful of die castings. The investment would be enormous so probably not worth it. It's not the seventies or eighty's when all the Japanese manufactures were slugging it out and company pride was at stake.

If you want to get a taste of this design, look at what the Japanese were offering in the early eighty's as CD's took over. They all had a flagship electro-mechanical linear tracker. Search for one of those as an affordable alternative. You may be surprised at how good they track.

Some where I read on the forums that folks were concerned about stylus wear on a LT tonearm. One fellow in the industry stated that after examining thousands of stylus he could always tell the ones that came off of a LT tonearm, without fault. He said that on a pivoting arm tonearm there would be uneven wear on the diamond, that one side was taking most of the wear. On the LT tonearm the diamond would show equal wear on the diamond. So even air bearing tonearms are easier than pivoting tonearms. I just thought that it was an interesting fact.

BillWojo
 

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