Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

[garylkoh]

Isn't auto-correct a hoot?

Lee

Really, that and fat fingers and not reading it first but I think you know what I meant

Haha. Well caught, Lee. There are some who do say that azimuth adjustment is a myth - but I think that Steve (when he emerges from his listening room) will attest to the fact that it makes quite a great difference to how enjoyable some music can be when it's set spot on (and I don't mean purely from measurement).

 

[the sound of Tao]

I had a wonderful afternoon yesterday with about 40 music lovers at the invite of Bob Attiyeh from Yarlung Records for a live recording session of some new artists.Here was the invitation....

Yarlung executive producer J Schlichting joins me in inviting you for a live concert recording session in beautiful Samueli Hall at the Segerstrom Center for the Arts in Costa Mesa on November 3rd, at 1pm. Restricted to 40 guests (you will be sitting with the musicians, microphones and engineers in the recording space) so please rsvp as soon as convenient.

Repertoire includes James Matheson’s String Quartet with violinist Baird Dodge leading members and family from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and the song cycle Times Alone, with New York musicians soprano Laura Strickling and pianist Tom Sauer.

Support for this recording comes from J and Helen Schlichting, as well as Esa-Pekka Salonen, Sally and Brad Austin, Aaron Egigian and Segerstrom Center for the Arts.

The music was not only superb but reinforced for me at least that live unamplified music exemplifies what most of us define as "natural". Nothing can even come close IMO. The string quartet was was wonderful as was the soprano with the piano accompanist.

I sat beside Gary Koh for the recording and learned quite a bit from Gary who has not only been present before for such sessions but who also has been involved to some extent with Yarlung Records in the underwriting of some performers. as well as donating equipment so kudos to Gary for this noble cause of bringing young new musicians to the spotlight for listeners like us to become familiar with.

After the performance Gary came back to my house for a few hours of listening but more so to help me further dial in my Tech Das AF1 and MC Anna cartridge as well as to hear again my system which has changed since Gary was last at my house in June 2014. I was anxious to get Gary's opinion about my quest for "natural" sound.

Within a few minutes of initial listening Gary had out his protractor and my strain gauge and was checking everything on the cartridge set up as there are now 300-400 hours and he felt a quick evaluation was necessary. Gary confirmed that David's set up was right on other than a few minor adjustments. What impressed me was that minuscule changes made by Gary to the arm made huge changes at the listening position. We listened for several hours to the demo music that Gary brought. I have said here so many times before that Gary's playlists at shows are second to none. He lived up to my expectation once again yesterday with his eclectic choice of music. He did bring with two LP's that knocked my socks off as they were so good. I have to find and order these two records before I can say what they were as Gary says they aren't easy to find and although pricey, weren't off the chart.

I felt very privileged yesterday to not only attend this fine recording session but to have Gary come back and tweak my analog set up left me with a huge smile on my face after Gary left. We had a lot of fun together. For me this is the enjoyment of this hobby. All we did was listen and made fine adjustments based on what our ears told us. To reap such large changes at there listening position with such small adjustments wasn't something I was expecting

Thank you Bob Attiyeh for the experience of being at a recording session and a big thumb's up to Gary Koh for getting me even closer to that "natural" sound[/QUOTE

Great post and what sounds like another memorable musical day Steve. For a boutique label Yarlung curate and contribute brilliantly to the repertoire. Will also be marvellous to be able to take the memory of that with you as a benchmark when playing the recording in your room somewhere down the track.

Also really cool to see how comfortable you and Gary are with fine tuning your system based on a subjective understanding and plenty of experience of real music as the framework and then simply making the music sounding natural and engaging as the benchmark for the sound, measurements only ever get us so far. Just a simple and clear goal post even if it takes the work of a lifetime to get to it.

 

[RBFC]

Haha. Well caught, Lee. There are some who do say that azimuth adjustment is a myth - but I think that Steve (when he emerges from his listening room) will attest to the fact that it makes quite a great difference to how enjoyable some music can be when it's set spot on (and I don't mean purely from measurement).

To quote a knowledgeable buddy, "Everything makes a difference!"

Lee

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Is it not how life works, I move up to Seattle and you are all down south having fun in the sun.
Steve you have time for one or two more tweek-o-philes to visit you befor I am back down there for thanksgiving weekend.
Buy then the poridge should be just right!

 

[Steve williams]

Definitely Mike. Just jet me know when

 

[Steve williams]

I've had an all tube system for at least 20+ years and have really not ever been a proponent for tube rolling. In fact in all those years the only tubes that I have ever rolled have been the 12AX7's on my amplifier replacing the stock tubes with NOS Telefunken ECC803S and several years ago I rolled the 12AT7 tubes on my Doshi tape head pre with NOS Telefunken ECC801S and have been extremely happy. One of the things Vladimir Lamm recommends when you buy one of his products is to purchase a matched extra set of tubes.

Such was the case when I bought my Lamm ML3 Signature/ LL1 Signature amp/preamp.

At the time Vladimir suggested I consider buying a matched set of copper plate GM-70 tubes for the amplifier.The ML3 comes supplied with "carbon" plate GM70 tubes. Vlad went on to comment that he had only 6 matched sets of these copper plate GM-70 tubes even though there were unmatched pairs around. These copper or carbon plate GM-70 tubes can last a lifetime and when on can light a dark room like a 100 watt bulb. Notwithstanding the price of $900 for the pair of these matched tubes I bought them and for the past 5 years they have remained on my shelf with all of the other extra sets of tubes I own. Over these 5 years I have had them in my system for less than 20 hours and have never really done any critical listening. The tubes have never been burned in......Until recently

When I visited David in Utah early this summer and spent 4 days listening to his amazing system I noticed that he was using the copper plate GM-70 in his ML3's so this greatly caught my attention. I also found that Vlad uses these copper plate tubes in his system In fact talking to David about the copper plate tube he highly recommended I give it a better chance in my system as he felt it was a wonderful tube and clearly in his opinion better than the supplied carbon plate tube. So for the past several months I have been using the pair of copper plate GM-70's in my amps exclusively and I can say they are sufficiently burned in.

I must say that my initial thoughts were that these tubes lacked some bass punch that the carbon plate tubes possessed. In fact I was initially non plussed and was going to put the other tubes back in. Over these past 5 months I have been playing vinyl virtually 100% and so this for me was a real learning experience.With the Ortofon MC Anna cartridge in my system and with 32 wpc amps I learned that I needed to up the volume in my preamp to get SPL equivalent to what I was hearing when I played digital. Once I got over that unfamiliar territory in my preamp gain control and realizing that it was OK and I wasn't going to blow off the back wall of my room then the fun began

As Hi-Fi Guy stated after he visited last week the change has been a subtle one as it tube rolling not major changes. What I have found after all these months is a warmer somewhat smoother presentation of the sound. The bass is every bit as good and the soundstage shows more detail but no change in soundstage size. I find my listening sessions to be longer and much more enjoyable

I hate too use the term "natural" again as David describes but with these tubes and the somewhat smoother sound they bring it does sound natural.

What I find when I say natural is the complete loss by me when listening to be at all analytic. I find that I am sitting back and totally immersed in the music

I have been playing mostly classical music in the past 4 months so the large orchestral with these coper plate tubes have given me the ability to sit and listen for long periods each day, something that in the past has been difficult for me

 

[rockitman]

Sounds great Steve. Glad everything is coming together. It's a misnomer by a lot if people who think you can dump a bunch of cash and instantly have the system performing to it's ultimate potential. Once you get the equipment, it takes many months for everything to settle and get dialed in. It sounds like you are there.

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Christian. I've bought several collections of vinyl. I've cleaned them all and have been listening to only vinyl and having a great time.

Christian you'll have to teach me how you adjust SRA on the fly with your Elite arm.

 

[rockitman]

Christian you'll have to teach me how you adjust SRA on the fly with your Elite arm.

That's pretty simple. Determine where the arm bubble level reading is when your SRA is correct to your ear....somewhere near level or a bit tipped up on the back. Take note where your bubble reads on the pivot tower spirit level. As a general rule....and you can fine tune as some records SRA may be different from others...adjust the height regardless of record thickness so the bubble level reads the same as your reference bubble level position. When you adjust VTF....using a scale, make sure you adjust for the scales plate thickness too. That way you can be assured your tracking weight is as desired no matter what record thickness.

 

[Steve williams]

Thanks Christian. Not sure I completely understand your last bit about VTF and the scale plate thickness.

 

[Steve williams]

Christian

Where did your other avatar go?

Is this new one Pépé LePew with Sylvester cat

 

[rockitman]

Christian

Where did your other avatar go?

Is this new one Pépé LePew with Sylvester cat

Indeed..Pepe was one of my favorite looney toons...

 

[rockitman]

Thanks Christian. Not sure I completely understand your last bit about VTF and the scale plate thickness.

You should set the weight VTF with the tonearm at the same VTA you play a record at. If not, the weight you think you have will not be right since the VTA was different when using the scale vs the record. You want the VTA/SRA the same from scale to record....hence the beauty of VTA height control knob.

 

[Steve williams]

Understood now

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Steve,

When I was into vinyl (Monaco TT, Triplanar VII & various cartridges but favourite was Len "The Cartridgeman" Gregory modded Music Maker Sapphire with a Glenn Croft MM phono) I initially got hung up about SRA, and learnt how to set up a cart on my system with a USB microscope. Then I read that for an arm with a 300mm effective length, to get a one degree change of SRA you need to alter arm height by 5.23mm. A 1.0mm change in arm height changes SRA by 0.19 degrees.

After that, a gave up on the scope method, and when setting up a cart, eye balled it to roughly parallel to the record surface, and depending on the cartridge, and the pressing (the cutting angles of disks can vary, I understand, by up to 20 degrees) lower or raised VTA to hit the sweet spot if something obviously needed it. Or I wanted to fine tune the sound for my system - tail down, tail up etc. Or just wanted to have a play with my kit.

The modded Grado's that Len makes are a nightmare to set up - they are super fussy with VTA - borne of a very long line contact stylus with the record - but on the plus side it is easy to hear when you have them correctly dialled in - the sound would suddenly lock into place. Great carts btw - sort of a cross between MC and MM, but without the issues of either (they have their own issues - mainly set up and compliance).

If you are interested, Geoff husband wrote an excellent piece on TNT about VTA/SRA here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html. I like Geoff's writing - no nonsense approach to hi fi.

That said, I had much fun with the Triplanar, raising and lowering the VTA on the fly, if for no other reason than I liked to fiddle and could convince myself I had made a positive change to my listening experience after each such intervention. Mind you, a clean record makes much more of a change. And VTF even more.

Vinyl is so much fun, and if I had the budget, the time and the space, and could overcome my OCD with it, I'd be pretty keen on a decent vinyl rig again. Nothing sounds like vinyl done well. Fortunately, I have some really good friends I can annoy on a regular basis for my vinyl fix. Speaking of which its about time for another top up of vinyl goodness...

 

[miniguy]

Bob Graham's arms all have neutral balance, so VTF is not dependent on VTA or changes in arm height. Once VTF is set it remains fixed regardless of variations of arm height. This means VTF doesn't vary as the arm tracks a warped record.

 

[rockitman]

Bob Graham's arms all have neutral balance, so VTF is not dependent on VTA or changes in arm height. Once VTF is set it remains fixed regardless of variations of arm height. This means VTF doesn't vary as the arm tracks a warped record.

If you place the stylus on the scale and adjust VTA tower, the weight does change. Your assertion is incorrect.

 

[miniguy]

If you place the stylus on the scale and adjust VTA tower, the weight does change. Your assertion is incorrect.

Well, either your stylus force gauge is wrong or Bob deviated the design of the Elite from previous Phantoms which all had neutral balance. I would be surprised at the latter possibility. I am contacting Bob to confirm and will post again after I talk to him. In the meantime, if you're so inclined, a very easy way to verify that an arm is neutrally balanced is to back off the CW to zero VTF, floating the arm. If it is precisely neutrally balanced it will remain stationary in any vertical position you place it in. If not neutrally balanced it will seek an equilibrium position, a condition which reflects stable balance. Most arms are designed this way, except for a very small minority which have unstable balance.

 

[rockitman]

Well, either your stylus force gauge is wrong or Bob deviated the design of the Elite from previous Phantoms which all had neutral balance. I would be surprised at the latter possibility. I am contacting Bob to confirm and will post again after I talk to him. In the meantime, if you're so inclined, a very easy way to verify that an arm is neutrally balanced is to back off the CW to zero VTF, floating the arm. If it is precisely neutrally balanced it will remain stationary in any vertical position you place it in. If not neutrally balanced it will seek an equilibrium position, a condition which reflects stable balance. Most arms are designed this way, except for a very small minority which have unstable balance.

I have the top digital scale only available from Ortofon in Japan. I just went down stairs and dropped the stylus on the scale and moved the VTA up and down from level. Raising it makes the VTF lighter and lowering it below level adds weight. It turns out we are both right. I can get the VTF to change up to 5/100ths of a gram by going to the extremes of raising or lowering the arm. Of course in real world use these extremes do not happen so if you are in the level range going up or down, for all intensive purposes the VTF remains consistent. I tested this on both the elite and supreme arms. So I stand corrected. I can get the force to change a little but in real world use, it doesnt matter. I learned something today.

 

[ddk]

I have the top digital scale only available from Ortofon in Japan. I just went down stairs and dropped the stylus on the scale and moved the VTA up and down from level. Raising it makes the VTF lighter and lowering it below level adds weight. It turns out we are both right. I can get the VTF to change up to 5/100ths of a gram by going to the extremes of raising or lowering the arm. Of course in real world use these extremes do not happen so if you are in the level range going up or down, for all intensive purposes the VTF remains consistent. I tested this on both the elite and supreme arms. So I stand corrected. I can get the force to change a little but in real world use, it doesnt matter. I learned something today.

Ortofon sells their scale here in the US too.

david