Hi Sam,
We had no idea that the Ultra's needed such extreme break-in compared to the other MB lines of cables. So even when we heard them for the first time we weren't hearing their full potential
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve Williams
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Hi Sam,
We had no idea that the Ultra's needed such extreme break-in compared to the other MB lines of cables. So even when we heard them for the first time we weren't hearing their full potential
Steve, I would recommend not mixing the Signature and Ultra ICs. If necessary, is there any way that you can rearrange your gear so that the distance the ICs have to span is shortened? Not for performance, but to be able to use Ultra for that last XLR cable.
Best,
Robert
I'm a firm believer of not messing with any of my cables after they are burned in for the above mentioned reasons. I've had these Ultra SC speaker cables, Ultra PC's (2) and a 1 meter pair of SE Signature in my system for 5 days and these have totally changed my system. For my ears they are uncolored. I just don't feel any part of the frequency range jumping out at me and drawing my attention to it. I told Leif that for the first time I feel that I heard the true magic of my Lamm electronics because now all I am hearing is music. It is very unlike me to listen for so long or so often but I am smiling as I type this.
Hi Bob
would that that were so but as my mother used to say "from your mouth to God's ears" because I am still trying to figure a way to get that 8 meter IC in Ultra but due to limited geography it is impossible to move the preamp closer to my amps
For those late to the party you should start at the beginning of this blog to understand what I did to be able to do sonically what I did in my room.
The remainder of my CMS racks arrive in a few weeks and with the plan Joe drew for me the preamps might move +/- 1 meter vs where they are now so I will need to not only go slowly but also wait to see what the true length of cable I will need for the Ultra IC as I believe what you are trying to say
Welcome to the crazy world of getting the last ounce of performance out of a system!! I would say, that if the sound degrades when they are moved, that there is still more room to 'engineer' the cables and/or system, to not show this behaviour - this sort of thing will drive one mad, if you let it
- hence my concept of a rig being 100% "robust" ... no matter what one then does in the normal course of events that the quality of the sound is not perturbed, at all ...
Hi Sam
Have you been bitten by the MB itch as well?
They are fabulous cables and as great as the Signature SC is the Ultra is even better. I have been immersed in my listening room for the past 4 days as I am hearing my system like I've never before heard it. The cables are non directional. I won't let Leif take them back until mine come as I simply cannot listen to mine with the old cables. This for me has been transcending
BTW, it's Jack and Jim's 2nd best kept secret secret behind the CMS racks so thank them. I just happened to hear their systems and knew that this cable was special
Steve, what do you now use for cables? This thread is so long, I have forgotten and don't know where to find a list of your current gear. I do remember you raving about the Shunyata full suite of cables once, but can't remember if you simplified things after ddk heard your system.
Hi microstrip,
The speaker cable are usually around 3 days and the interconnects are around the same. It just depends on how many cables are connected at once. We are having another cooker made for us so we can keep up. The power cords are the ones that takes the longest to break-in. We receive the cables from MasterBuilt with no break-in.
I wanted to clarify my above post. The Ultra and Signature cables work perfectly well together. In fact the first Ultra cable I got to audition and then purchase was a two meter XLR IC that I ended up putting between my DAC and preamp. The rest of my IC's & SC's were Signature. The impact of that one IC set was just as various folks have described in this thread. Each addition of Ultra kept elevating the system's performance with incrementally increasing resolution and detail. The greatest improvement, however, was with that first pair of Ultra interconnects. After that, it was a slippery slope.
My component rack is between my speakers, adjacent to the front wall. I have the speakers well out into the room with the baffles six feet from the front wall, so I hope that minimizes interference with the sound. Having the equipment to the side and behind the listening position would be ideal, but a long run of cable is that much more expensive.
Best,
Robert
Which makes sense. The interference effects that these cables are inhibiting from degrading the sound most likely are occurring at a certain level of electrical activity, virtually everywhere - and the interconnects are carrying the lowest level version of the audio information, so they're the most vulnerable to a lowering of effective signal to noise. Hence put the most into getting the interconnects to optimum, with less required elsewhere.
Frank,
I'm not so sure it's just a matter of signal to noise, but I'm not an audio engineer. I know that using Ultra in the internal wiring of my VR100's made a big improvement. The improvement is enough that VSA's upcoming Ultra line of speakers all use Ultra for their internal wiring and that's in a high current environment.
Where I'm really clueless is why the MasterBuilt power cords, at any of the price-peformance levels, make such a dramatic improvement in the sound whether feeding power amps, preamps, even DACs.
Best,
Robert
I'm not so sure it's just a matter of signal to noise, but I'm not an audio engineer. I know that using Ultra in the internal wiring of my VR100's made a big improvement. The improvement is enough that VSA's upcoming Ultra line of speakers all use Ultra for their internal wiring and that's in a high current environment.
Where I'm really clueless is why the MasterBuilt power cords, at any of the price-peformance levels, make such a dramatic improvement in the sound whether feeding power amps, preamps, even DACs.
Best,
Robert
Hi Robert,
I'm an electrical engineer, but never practiced as such, much less being an audio one - but I've noted these issues for decades and have always tried to address them from a logical, engineering angle, just using DIY methods. I rewired my first speakers 30 years ago, as an experiment, and noted the improvement - but have never been able to nail an absolutely clear answer for what's occurring, in spite of numerous experiments and exercises. I know what works, for me, using everyday cabling and so pursue that approach ...
A very key area, I believe, is static behaviour - the 'wrong' wiring approach will allow static buildups to occur in the materials of the cable, and inject a subtle noise signal in the conductors, which will be almost impossible to measure using conventional, everyday techniques. Also, making sure no conductor is allowed to lie next to another one so that casual metal to metal contact occurs, the usual situation with stranded cables - Litz done well is a solution here, which MB uses, I believe.
Cheers,
Good evening everyone. I have just read this thread from page 160 where the Masterbuilt cable are introduced. This is an excellent discussion, thank you all for contributing!
Commenting context: I have had a full loom of Masterbuilt with all Signature PC and Ultra IC and Ultra SC since March 2016. Equipment is Von Schweikert VR 55 Aktive speakers, Ayon CD5s with NOS tubes, and Nuforce Reference 20 mono amps. I am a classically trained amateur pianist and used a 7 foot Grand Piano in the same room for reference as to what live music sounds like as well as auditory memory from many concerts. Also, I am a psychologist wary of placebo effects. I have no financial relationship with with VSA or Masterbuilt. Since installing the Masterbuilt loom I have changed nothing in my system for what is for me a long while, having reached a level, particularly with solo piano and large orchestral music (which having been the most challenging)that is finally extremely satisfying.
This is part of my initial and later impressions as I upgraded from Signature to Ultra speaker cables which I hope will give a taste of my experience with these excellent cables:
In the first hour of play, the Ultras seemed less relaxed, liquid, open, and warm which I attributed to break in. Yet I immediately noticed the bass (particularly deep bass) sounded and physically felt more dynamic. It was fuller with better differentiation of tone and timing cues. For example soft background drum strikes could now be heard as hitting slightly different parts of the drum head and what I thought before was a uniform beat could now be heard as perhaps a half tone alternation of frequency and slight variations in loudness to maintain the beat. Thus rhythm and timing were better conveyed. Double bass string and wood were better conveyed and all bass had more punch and finesse.
Other enhancements were much more subtle - they did not jump out but unfolded as I relaxed and enjoyed the music. These included cleaner definition, a substantial increase in air, and clearer positioning of instruments within the sound stage. I newly noticed very faint sounds such as the shift of musicians position right before playing as they approached their instrument, I could more easily hear shifts in my equipment's warm up cycle, soft massed strings deep in the background sounded more differentiated, lively, and life-like, massed strings that before tended to sound a bit smeared sounded clearer. where the recording allowed there was a dramatic increase in depth.
Approaching the twenty hour mark I noticed that grand scale music such as full organ sounded grander and better grounded in the bass, and beautiful lyrical music sounded even more gorgeous and lilting. The pieces I was playing felt shorter than usual in the sense that I would be absorbed in them and then surprised to hear that they were ending - this has never happened to me before in auditioning any system change. There was also a sense of being drawn deeper into the musical field and the story being created by the players, and a better sense of the players and their personalities if you will, not just instruments.
Again all these changes except the killer bass and the amazing expansion of the soundstage air and depth, were very subtle because the Signatures are already so excellent. Yet taken as gestalt the effect was a substantial increase in feeling that you were at a live performance and being invited to be swept away with the music rather than by the music - if that makes sense. Paradoxically given that the bass was much fuller yet better defined, the whole of the music felt much more nimble and airy in the way that live music sounds
As the Ultras relax and open they are soaring in a straight line towards perfection. They do not seem cool, rather dead-on-neutral. I suspect that what you will hear is mostly what your other equipment is capable of and this may be a good bit more quality than you thought, given that with Ultra you are removing so much distortion from the system. If you want a touch of warmth or forgiveness of any harshness, the copper Signatures may be better, for example with a computer front end and mid solid state. And the Signature cable is indeed stellar in its own right. But with most turntables (I suspect), with very high quality digital, and with my tubed Ayon preamp, there is a natural warmth conveyed. In any case all this enhanced detail is never glassy, hard, harsh, peaked, or at the expense of the organic wholeness and balance of the music. It just sounds like a clearer window. At this point you would have to pry the Ultra out of my cold dead hands!
Update - My wife has been in Hawaii for two weeks as a balance to my stereo purchases. Meanwhile I have played my system nearly non stop, putting many hours on my new Ultra speaker cables, so thought I would post a follow-up.
The Ultras, great out of the box, continue to improve. They became more open, relaxed, and liquid. I have been working through many recordings that I have not played in a long time, and about a third of them surprise me with shockingly new levels of sound stage depth with the Ultras. Other recordings are revealing delights in new found micro detail particularly in the highs yet still with no etch, grain, or over-prominence. Bass also continues to improve in impact and definition, enough so that I turned down the bass adjustment of my 55's a touch compared to when using the Signature cables. I am happy enough with the Ultra to consider this a substantial system upgrade which I judge to beat any currently contemplated upgrade to pre-amp or amp, and so I boxed up my Signatures to ship back to VSA as part of the trade upwards.
Hope this helps!
Joe
Commenting context: I have had a full loom of Masterbuilt with all Signature PC and Ultra IC and Ultra SC since March 2016. Equipment is Von Schweikert VR 55 Aktive speakers, Ayon CD5s with NOS tubes, and Nuforce Reference 20 mono amps. I am a classically trained amateur pianist and used a 7 foot Grand Piano in the same room for reference as to what live music sounds like as well as auditory memory from many concerts. Also, I am a psychologist wary of placebo effects. I have no financial relationship with with VSA or Masterbuilt. Since installing the Masterbuilt loom I have changed nothing in my system for what is for me a long while, having reached a level, particularly with solo piano and large orchestral music (which having been the most challenging)that is finally extremely satisfying.
This is part of my initial and later impressions as I upgraded from Signature to Ultra speaker cables which I hope will give a taste of my experience with these excellent cables:
In the first hour of play, the Ultras seemed less relaxed, liquid, open, and warm which I attributed to break in. Yet I immediately noticed the bass (particularly deep bass) sounded and physically felt more dynamic. It was fuller with better differentiation of tone and timing cues. For example soft background drum strikes could now be heard as hitting slightly different parts of the drum head and what I thought before was a uniform beat could now be heard as perhaps a half tone alternation of frequency and slight variations in loudness to maintain the beat. Thus rhythm and timing were better conveyed. Double bass string and wood were better conveyed and all bass had more punch and finesse.
Other enhancements were much more subtle - they did not jump out but unfolded as I relaxed and enjoyed the music. These included cleaner definition, a substantial increase in air, and clearer positioning of instruments within the sound stage. I newly noticed very faint sounds such as the shift of musicians position right before playing as they approached their instrument, I could more easily hear shifts in my equipment's warm up cycle, soft massed strings deep in the background sounded more differentiated, lively, and life-like, massed strings that before tended to sound a bit smeared sounded clearer. where the recording allowed there was a dramatic increase in depth.
Approaching the twenty hour mark I noticed that grand scale music such as full organ sounded grander and better grounded in the bass, and beautiful lyrical music sounded even more gorgeous and lilting. The pieces I was playing felt shorter than usual in the sense that I would be absorbed in them and then surprised to hear that they were ending - this has never happened to me before in auditioning any system change. There was also a sense of being drawn deeper into the musical field and the story being created by the players, and a better sense of the players and their personalities if you will, not just instruments.
Again all these changes except the killer bass and the amazing expansion of the soundstage air and depth, were very subtle because the Signatures are already so excellent. Yet taken as gestalt the effect was a substantial increase in feeling that you were at a live performance and being invited to be swept away with the music rather than by the music - if that makes sense. Paradoxically given that the bass was much fuller yet better defined, the whole of the music felt much more nimble and airy in the way that live music sounds
As the Ultras relax and open they are soaring in a straight line towards perfection. They do not seem cool, rather dead-on-neutral. I suspect that what you will hear is mostly what your other equipment is capable of and this may be a good bit more quality than you thought, given that with Ultra you are removing so much distortion from the system. If you want a touch of warmth or forgiveness of any harshness, the copper Signatures may be better, for example with a computer front end and mid solid state. And the Signature cable is indeed stellar in its own right. But with most turntables (I suspect), with very high quality digital, and with my tubed Ayon preamp, there is a natural warmth conveyed. In any case all this enhanced detail is never glassy, hard, harsh, peaked, or at the expense of the organic wholeness and balance of the music. It just sounds like a clearer window. At this point you would have to pry the Ultra out of my cold dead hands!
Update - My wife has been in Hawaii for two weeks as a balance to my stereo purchases. Meanwhile I have played my system nearly non stop, putting many hours on my new Ultra speaker cables, so thought I would post a follow-up.
The Ultras, great out of the box, continue to improve. They became more open, relaxed, and liquid. I have been working through many recordings that I have not played in a long time, and about a third of them surprise me with shockingly new levels of sound stage depth with the Ultras. Other recordings are revealing delights in new found micro detail particularly in the highs yet still with no etch, grain, or over-prominence. Bass also continues to improve in impact and definition, enough so that I turned down the bass adjustment of my 55's a touch compared to when using the Signature cables. I am happy enough with the Ultra to consider this a substantial system upgrade which I judge to beat any currently contemplated upgrade to pre-amp or amp, and so I boxed up my Signatures to ship back to VSA as part of the trade upwards.
Hope this helps!
Joe
Hi Joe
what my initial thought was when I heard the Ultra speaker cables was the bass exactly like you described above. My amps are only 32 wpc and yet the bass I am getting now is like nothing I have ever heard my speakers do so well.
I am hearing things in music I play that I have played too many times to count and know in my sleep yet am hearing things I have never heard before. There is so much more detail that like you I haver spent the last 5 days in my sound room while my wife is away visiting our daughter in Denver. As you say things continue to take on such a presence yet the cable is totally neutral. There is nothing that screams out at you. The effect of this cable can be appreciated full range but it was the deep bass that floored me in my first few listens
Steve, thank you for the confirming feedback. It is strange to me to be raving about cables! Sure envy you for being able to hear those ultimate systems in the Orient. It is great to have that reference as to what is possible in reproduced music.
This is a key point - it's removing crucial Badness from the playback chain, which is preventing all those other qualities you mention being correctly expressed. In one sense, you're truly hearing what your recordings contain, for the first time ...
Frank - agreed. Also I think that wire being the longest part of the signal path and most subject to EMI and RFI is perhaps more important than we usually think, if there is excellent quality in design and implementation in other components.
So at this point, we've gone beyond challenging others to listen to these cables, and it's now a provocation. I will do my best to listen to them, but I have to also say that, if they don't perform better than my MIT, then I will surely have lost all respect for VS.
There are quite a few claims here that make me more skeptical than ever:
1) What's the association with CERN? I only heard "aerospace". Aerospace what... what are the requirements there and where do they overlap with audio
2) "Revolutionary product"
3) Takes a year for them to break in
4) Sensitive to moving them around
5) Still not clear of what cables they replaced on the various owners' systems. I know Steve mentioned Valhalla, but I also know he was using Transparent and/or Shunyata for signal, at some point, though I have lost track
6) Steve told me he had to turn the volume way down with the MB cables, but if he's using Transparent and Shunyata then that's understandable, and we have discussed the shortcomings of these cables
7) The Oracle MITs offer an exceptional low noise floor with tremendous amount of detail, as is befit to Spectral equipment
8) The prices are claimed to be "stratospheric", yet there is no information about that, nada
So who do I contact to audition these cables? I hope I am not making any new enemies...
There are quite a few claims here that make me more skeptical than ever:
1) What's the association with CERN? I only heard "aerospace". Aerospace what... what are the requirements there and where do they overlap with audio
2) "Revolutionary product"
3) Takes a year for them to break in
4) Sensitive to moving them around
5) Still not clear of what cables they replaced on the various owners' systems. I know Steve mentioned Valhalla, but I also know he was using Transparent and/or Shunyata for signal, at some point, though I have lost track
6) Steve told me he had to turn the volume way down with the MB cables, but if he's using Transparent and Shunyata then that's understandable, and we have discussed the shortcomings of these cables
7) The Oracle MITs offer an exceptional low noise floor with tremendous amount of detail, as is befit to Spectral equipment
8) The prices are claimed to be "stratospheric", yet there is no information about that, nada
So who do I contact to audition these cables? I hope I am not making any new enemies...
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