Does Everything Make a Difference?

[tima]

Nice post, Tim. I know we don’t always agree Tim but on these points we are fully aligned. I have been banging this drum since I joined this forum now many years ago. In that time our systems have converged , interesting given our basic philosophy is also aligned.

Thank you Brad, I appreciate your words. I learn a lot about speakers from your posts. And yes, I believe we are aligned in basic philosophy.

 

[tima]

And, since the wire (even silver) presents some resistance, the capacitance in parallel forms a low-pass filter, yes? Isn’t this the physics used by some to tune their systems, by choice of interconnects?

Perhaps. I cannot honestly say if people tune their systems by underlying physics or by the sonic consequences of that. But I agree that understanding what is happening electrically is interesting and can be used in explanation in what we hear.

 

[PeterA]

I would be very curious to know if you hear any effect from Shun Mooks.

The more critical thing is whether or not you hear any and then prefer it or not. Are you not going to try one or some?

 

[Another Johnson]

When I read some posts, my heart goes out to the poster … obviously haunted by audio sound-ghosts. They’re real enough to the haunted. It’s like reading Edgar Allan Poe’s tale of The Telltale Heart.

Edgar Allan Poe — 'I heard all things in the heaven and in the earth. I heard many things in hell.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The more critical thing is whether or not you hear any and then prefer it or not. Are you not going to try one or some?

Probably not. I'm just not big on tweaks.

Unlike many here -- and this is not in any way a criticism of them -- I really do not have patience for infinite tweaking and never-ending fussing around. Once I am very happy with the sound of my system it is pretty much "pencils down" for me. I fully appreciate that making one's system a never-ending project can be a fun part of the hobby, but for me personally at some point I like my projects to end.

Don wants me to try some different cables between phono and preamp, and that's fine, but I personally don't feel a lot of gusto to do it. I'm quite happy with a combination of Cardas Clear Beyond and Clear Reflection.

Close friends love Shun Mooks, and I respect that. My understanding is that they somehow produce a sympathetic resonance which has the subjective perceived effect of extending harmonic decay. That sounds fine, but I don't think my system is lacking in harmonic decay. That sounds to me like something digital-based systems may be enhanced by.

Going forward I may play with absorption versus diffusion on the side walls and on the front wall and on the rear wall. I may return to playing with ribbon panel toe-in at some point. I would love to try a high power SET amplifier. I am waiting for the ASC Resnick-ator Helmholtz resonator TubeTraps. I might consolidate some power supplies into an isolation transformer on a legacy outlet outside of the listening room electrical system. But I consider each of the foregoing items to be fundamental system things (room acoustics, loudspeaker positioning, amplification, electrical infrastructure -- the same things that are on Lee's list from yesterday), and not tweaks.

 

[Rensselaer]

Perhaps. I cannot honestly say if people tune their systems by underlying physics or by the sonic consequences of that. But I agree that understanding what is happening electrically is interesting and can be used in explanation in what we hear.

Looking back to the entry by Richard Austin where a dealer demonstrated a power conditioner that improved the sound of one device, but not another, we can deduce that cables can be chosen by dealers (or owners) to correct the sound defects of a particular piece of equipment. We can equally deduce that those same interconnects may make no difference (or an negative difference) to another piece of equipment.

Herein lays the rub of this thread; that which makes a positive difference in one set up may cause a negative or negligible difference in another and by the nature of this website comes to us from anecdotal experience. Although the tone of my replies so far on this thread would suggest I believe it is all snake oil and to now say otherwise here is hypocritical, I am certain there are experts on this forum who have discussed observations/findings in this and other threads that might be totally appropriate to the OP query.

For example, I think it was back in March that Shakti noted that an Onyx-bodied Koetsu cartridge, that had neither the platinum magnets or the diamond cantilever , that he listened to sounded great, like the sound of those Koetsu cartridges he initially fell in love with. We also know that before platinum/diamond, the Koetsu only differed in price (and sound?) by what the body was made from (the insides were identical). Certainly there is useful information here. No, not that the sound of your hi-fi would improve if the components were encased in Onyx, but that if you are looking for that classic Koetsu sound you might be wise to audition pre-platinum magnet and diamond cantilevered cartridges before buying.

In response to my belief, referred to in my first paragraph, that some types of insulation on interconnects will turn the interconnect into a low-pass filter; I purchased Dulund wire which insulates with woven silk and oil. Does such not behave as a low-pass filter, Is it the best option? I don’t know, but it sounds great to me (totally anecdotal I know, but some here know the truth).

The OP asks if all things affect sound, I don’t know the answer to that question but I do believe that the more things between source and speaker the more the sound is adversely affected. What was the saying used to describe the best amplifier, “ a straight wire with gain”? Does this concept explain why, to many, SET’s sound better than pentodes and push-pull circuits?

I think that the experts on this forum (and I am certainly not one), could be able to converse amongst themselves and work out what designs/materials would, in fact, make the biggest difference to this hobby for the benefit of all.

 

[Ron Resnick]

For audiophiles focused on "timing" perhaps cables with different velocities of propagation are perceived as affecting the timing of music. If cables pass treble frequencies versus bass frequencies at very slightly different times perhaps this could be perceived as a difference in timing or as a difference in the coherent presentation of soundstage information.

 

[morricab]

For audiophiles focused on "timing" perhaps cables with different velocities of propagation are perceived as affecting the timing of music. If cables pass treble frequencies versus bass frequencies at very slightly different times perhaps this could be perceived as a difference in timing or as a difference in the coherent presentation of soundstage information.

This would like be in nanoseconds or at most microseconds...I would say unlikely to be heard...but who knows!!

 

[Ron Resnick]

This would like be in nanoseconds or at most microseconds...I would say unlikely to be heard...but who knows!!

I have no idea. I learned about velocity of propagation from Galen Gareis, of Belden and then Iconoclast, who believes it is an important characteristic of cables. It occurred to me in connection with the discussion about "timing."

If I remember correctly Galen thinks about velocity of propagation in terms of making sure the cable does not adulterate the underlying sonic information of sound-staging. All I know is he knows far more about cables than I ever will. If Galen -- a legitimate electrical engineer -- thinks velocity of propagation is important, there might be something to it.

 

[treitz3]

The ear/brain is sensitive to differences in time of arrival of as small as 10 microseconds. This is why critical placement of speakers relative to your listening position is so important.

Tom

 

[Tangram]

The ear/brain is sensitive to differences in time of arrival of as small as 10 microseconds. This is why critical placement of speakers relative to your listening position is so important.

Tom

Even with my laser measuring gear, I doubt I could accurately position my speakers to account for the distance traveled by a sound wave in 1/100,000 of a second (3.4 mm.) Put another way, given that my speakers are 3 m from my head, 10 microseconds is 0.1% of the total time it takes for sound to travel from my speakers to my ears. What I DO know is that I can’t keep my head that still when I listen to music!

 

[treitz3]

Hello, Tangram. Instead of deflecting this thread, I would invite you to take a look at this thread - https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/detailed-speaker-setup-and-optimization.36935/

Tom

 

[henrich3]

The digital room correction in my pre/pro corrects the frequency response, phase response, group delay, and impulse response of each speaker at my listening position. It also allows me to create a pleasing house curve. It seems a little odd that audiophiles attempt to tweak all those audio parameters with speaker cable or interconnect swaps, power cords, wooden blocks, Shakti stones, etc., when digital room correction products are far more effective at accomplishing those goals. Just my two cents...

https://www.trinnov.com/en/technologies/

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The digital room correction in my pre/pro corrects for the frequency response, phase response, group delay, and impulse response of each speaker at my listening position. It also allows me to create a pleasing house curve. It seems a little odd that audiophiles attempt to tweak all these audio parameters with cable or interconnect swaps, power cords, wooden blocks, Shakti stones, etc., when digital room correction products are far more effective at accomplishing those goals. Just my two cents...

as i also own a Trinnov Altitude 16, i do understand it's room tuning potential. but that comes at a musical purity price. plus it's digital only. so no analog signal handling. for many it could be worth it as it is an easier path to go down than some other choices to sort out a challenging room. in my Home Theater room i even use the Trinnov to move around apparent locations of particular of my 9.3.6 speaker Dolby Atmos speaker set up. there is a window and double patio doors along one side. and it does this brilliantly. there is no better tool for that job.

but musically the high level analog signal path of my 2 channel room has a realism for the music i love, that exposes the Trinnov's compromises. including a much higher level digital playback. signal path purity and getting the room and everything right, and i mean everything, has a much higher ceiling.

horses for courses. both are wonderful for what they can do right.

 

[henrich3]

as i also own a Trinnov Altitude 16, i do understand it's room tuning potential. but that comes at a musical purity price. plus it's digital only. so no analog signal handling. for many it could be worth it as it is an easier path to go down than some other choices to sort out a challenging room. in my Home Theater room i even use the Trinnov to move around apparent locations of particular of my 9.3.6 speaker Dolby Atmos speaker set up. there are windows and double doors along one side. and it does this brilliantly. there is no better tool for that job.

but musically the high level analog signal path of my 2 channel room has a realism for the music i love, that exposes the Trinnov's compromises. including a much higher level digital playback. signal path purity and getting the room and everything right, and i mean everything, has a much higher ceiling.

horses for courses. both are wonderful for what they can do right.

You've got a very impressive 2 channel system. You should post pics of your theater too. I'm sure that it sounds great as well.

 

[Tangram]

The ear/brain is sensitive to differences in time of arrival of as small as 10 microseconds. This is why critical placement of speakers relative to your listening position is so important.

Tom

Tom, with respect, it is your comment on speaker placement (a fundamental, not tweak aspect of setup) that deflects. But thanks for pointing out the other thread. I do believe in the critical importance of speaker setup. I just question my ability to dial in the position with the apparent accuracy required even with the right tools.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You've got a very impressive 2 channel system. You should post pics of your theater too. I'm sure that it sounds great as well.

here are few 3 year old pictures of my Home Theater room from a thread on AVS. scroll down this page for one more. it's a little different now. and i've upgraded my amplifiers and added some art to the room and the tall DVD racks are gone. i was going to add some GIK acoustical treatment to the walls and ceiling to somewhat tame it more but my wife frowned on that (this room is off our family room in the house) so i've not done it yet. it's a little bit too reflective. even the Trinnov benefits from some treatments. it can only work with what it's given....and cannot do the whole job by itself.

 

[treitz3]

My apologies, Tangram. I was on the phone while typing my response. I won't do that again. What I meant to say, is that I didn't want "us" deflecting the thread, going off on measurements/timing to the inth degree. I dropped the ball on my response and for that, I apologize.

With that said, I do consider speaker setup a tweak. Not just general location but "really" dialing them into place. @sbnx takes his rig a decimal place further than mine but it is critical to set them as precisely as possible, to get the timing aspect correct. Whenever my system sounds "off", I always find that one of the speakers has moved, ever so slightly. A quick readjustment with the tools, checking both speakers again, and I'm back to where I was.

I have found that sometimes, accidentally rubbing a part of my body up against the speakers (even though they weigh a considerable amount), it knocks it off just enough to be a detriment to the system. I have known for quite some time that placement was critical to the end result but when I started gathering the proper tools to dial it in even further? I was amazed at how such minuscule movement could affect the end result.

Tom

 

[henrich3]

here are few 3 year old pictures of my Home Theater room from a thread on AVS. scroll down this page for a few more. it's a little different now. and i've upgraded my amplifiers and added some art to the room and the tall DVD racks are gone. i was going to add some GIK acoustical treatment to the walls and ceiling to somewhat tame it more but my wife frowned on that (this room is off our family room in the house) so i've not done it yet. it's a little bit too reflective. even the Trinnov benefits from some treatments.

Nice theater. It's not even close to the same level as your two channel system however. The speakers in your theater (Revel Performa F30's - $3500), for example, aren't in any way comparable to the Evolution Acoustics MM7's ($200k) in your two channel room, and as you acknowledge, the room acoustics aren't what they should be in your theater either. Given those very important differences, it's an apples & oranges comparison to say that you prefer your analog two channel room for music listening. The superiority of your two channel system has far more to do with the speaker differences & room acoustics in your two rooms than any compromises with your Altitude or a digital signal path.

The Altitude does have analog inputs (RCA & XLR). I don't know what adapters you would need to hook up a turntable, for example, but I'm sure that it could be done without too much effort if someone wanted to have a single listening room for both analog-sourced music and home theater. You would then have the benefits of room correction & using your ideal house curve with those analog sources, as well as the ability to upmix them for immersive listening if you like.

 

[DaveC]

For audiophiles focused on "timing" perhaps cables with different velocities of propagation are perceived as affecting the timing of music. If cables pass treble frequencies versus bass frequencies at very slightly different times perhaps this could be perceived as a difference in timing or as a difference in the coherent presentation of soundstage information.

Propagation velocity is only dependent on the dielectric. I'd agree the dielectric is very important, but I'm not sure propagation velocity is the primary reason why this is the case.