Does Everything Make a Difference?

[Rensselaer]

I think you are asking the wrong question.

Questioning each other as to their "listening" training, as if that would prove that one person says they gain by placing stones on their electronic devices or lifting cables off the carpeted wooden floor is more valid than another is like arguing which has a better grasp of the design of the fine garment that the Emperor is supposedly wearing. Where is the unindoctrinated kid that shouts out that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes?

 

[Tangram]

I think you are asking the wrong question.

Questioning each other as to their "listening" training, as if that would prove that one person says they gain by placing stones on their electronic devices or lifting cables off the carpeted wooden floor is more valid than another is like arguing which has a better grasp of the design of the fine garment that the Emperor is supposedly wearing. Where is the unadulterated kid that shouts out that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes?

Agree. Audio gaslighting writ large.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Attributed to Heraclitus: "It is not possible to step into the same river twice." Not only is your setup changing all the time, so are you. How do you separate the two?

Emerson said: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

...and I had an MRI Wednesday, so who knows what has changed in me now. Nice pull on the Heraclitus quote. I thought that was an old Chinese philosopher's line, opining on an edict to prevent over-fishing in the Yangtze.

My understanding is, Lake and Palmer were often critical of Emerson's philosophical meanderings, but they nonetheless managed to keep the band together all the way to "Love Beach." Bravo, sir.

 

[Rensselaer]

...and I had an MRI Wednesday, so who knows what has changed in me now. Nice pull on the Heraclitus quote. I thought that was an old Chinese philosopher's line, opining on an edict to prevent over-fishing in the Yangtze.

My understanding is, Lake and Palmer were often critical of Emerson's philosophical meanderings, but they nonetheless managed to keep the band together all the way to "Love Beach." Bravo, sir.

And this affects the price and effectiveness of Shakti Stones how?

 

[PYP]

My understanding is, Lake and Palmer were often critical of Emerson's philosophical meanderings, but they nonetheless managed to keep the band together all the way to "Love Beach."

This makes me think that a new thread which misattributes quotes to musicians and composers could be fun. ELP! That really brings me back. Great music.

(PS, hope the MRI brings good news. Amazing technology which sounds like science fiction. Hopefully, all internal organs returned to their original positions!).

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...a local dealer sold me a Shakti for 50 bucks six or so years back. Admittedly, it's more than I thought I would ever spend for a door-stop, but its value comes around on a windy day. Recommended.

 

[treitz3]

Who are these trained listeners you're talking about? In my case I was taught audio by Techtronix engineers when I was a teenager. I found out when I had dinner with John Atkinson after the Annual Gala that he is self-taught as is Amir at ASR. Robert Harley of TAS claims to have an audio engineering degree but nobody can tell me where he got it from. So, I'm leery about saying trained listeners.

You apparently missed the point of my post. I was talking about hearing versus listening. I will choose to not even engage with you on this. It seems that all you want to do is challenge for sport.

If you think I hold Amir as one of the trained or well versed listeners, you obviously have not been paying attention. Also, who I choose to pay attention to when they speak is a personal thing to me, not to be debated or brought out into the public front. I can tell you that the list is smaller than I can count on both hands and not one of them is a reviewer. That's all I will comment about on that aspect.

Tom

 

[PYP]

...a local dealer sold me a Shakti for 50 bucks six or so years back. Admittedly, it's more than I thought I would ever spend for a door-stop, but its value comes around on a windy day. Recommended.

still have three second-hand Shakti attached by heavy duty double-backed tape to the metal door of our electrical panel . Years after the everything counts fever subsided, I found it impossible to remove them. To my bemusement, electricians who have worked on the panel completely ignore them (even though they make keeping the door open a pain) and never ask why this #*$% is on the door. I did explain them to a friendly electrician who understood completely because he was a model train enthusiast.

 

[mtemur]

Everything makes a difference. Recently I listened to a friend’s system which I’m very familiar. After 10 minutes of listening I felt like it sounds different than usual, just a little bit like transistorized. BTW it’s transistor free all tubed system (32 tubes in total). I asked my friend what he has changed thinking his answer would be Telefunken ecc802s tubes on his Kaguras, but he said he only added a wood block under the dedicated AC line. The dedicated AC line is solid core Oyaide cable hanged by natural silk on various places and it’s running from meter to the receptacle back of the system. There was just one place which is not hanged by silk but sitting over a wood block. What he did was replacing that regular wood block with the one we bought during our recent trip to Japan. Only one piece of wood under AC line managed to make a noticeable change to my friend’s system. Afterwards I tried same wood block on my system with similar results. Strangely the same wood work the opposite way under speaker cables.

IMHO if your system gets closer to real music there won’t be tube or transistor sound and there won’t be vinyl or cd sound cause real music is neither of those. It’s just music.

 

[Tangram]

I’m find this thread quite useful, but not for the reasons one may think.

 

[ssfas]

Not in my book.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Everything makes a difference. Recently I listened to a friend’s system which I’m very familiar. After 10 minutes of listening I felt like it sounds different than usual, just a little bit like transistorized. BTW it’s transistor free all tubed system (32 tubes in total). I asked my friend what he has changed thinking his answer would be Telefunken ecc802s tubes on his Kaguras, but he said he only added a wood block under the dedicated AC line. The dedicated AC line is solid core Oyaide cable hanged by natural silk on various places and it’s running from meter to the receptacle back of the system. There was just one place which is not hanged by silk but sitting over a wood block. What he did was replacing that regular wood block with the one we bought during our recent trip to Japan. Only one piece of wood under AC line managed to make a noticeable change to my friend’s system.

Did your friend whose system it is hear the same slightly transistorized you reported you from the new wood block?

Afterwards I tried same wood block on my system with similar results. Strangely the same wood work the opposite way under speaker cables.

Thank you for this interesting report!

Please know I am not suggesting or implying that you did not hear what you are reporting in both contexts. I take you at your word that you heard these differences in these two systems -- the differences in sound in his system from a single different wood block, and the addition of the new wood block his system in your system with the opposite sonic effect.

But when I read something like this I have to admit that I do get skepticaI. I wonder if I would've heard the same differences (I prejudicially suspect not). When I read something like this I wonder if you would be able to hear the differences consistently and repeatedly in a blind testing situation to a statistically valid significance.

if your system gets closer to real music

there won’t be tube or transistor sound

and there won’t be vinyl or cd sound

cause real music is neither of those. It’s just music.

No matter what we think we hear and no matter how sure we are that it is something objective, I believe that much of what we hear and much of what we believe in this hobby simply cannot escape the gravitational pull of subjectivity.

 

[Lee]

I would say almost everything makes a difference.

1. Proper set up by experts like Jim Smith, Elliot Goldman, and local dealer Scott Carpenter at Evolution hifi always sound so engaging to my ears.

2. Power products really work. A recent upgraded cable on my tape deck had a stunning impact.

3. Isolation feet have impressed me with what they can do.

4. Room acoustics are such an important building block.

5. Perfect cartridge setup is critical too.

The only thing that I have not heard an improvement from are cable lifts with an exception of the Synergistic ones although I believe that may be due to the HFTs attached. It may others work in a different room.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Afterwards I tried same wood block on my system with similar results. Strangely the same wood work the opposite way under speaker cables.

Does this mean that in your system the same wood made the sound slightly less transistorized sounding?

Do you have a theory to explain why the wood block might have an opposite effect in your system?

 

[mtemur]

Thank you for your opening this thread.

Did your friend whose system it is hear the same slightly transistorized you reported you from the new wood block?

His definition about the change was absolutely the same as mine.

I take you at your word that you heard these differences in these two systems -- the differences in sound in his system from a single different wood block, and the addition of the new wood block his system in your system with the opposite sonic effect.

Regarding the Japanese wood block; I heard the same effect on his (my friend's) and my system cause we both have the same Oyaide dedicated AC line running from meter to receptacle. And we heard the same opposite effect under speaker cables because we both have the same double run Kondo SPs 2.7 cable.

When I read something like this I wonder if you would be able to hear the differences consistently and repeatedly in a blind testing situation to a statistically valid significance.

I would hear the same effect in a blind test because it's not about my hearing ability, it's about improving the system's ability to reflect changes. The more your system improves (I don't want to use the word transparent) the more it becomes open to reflect changes.

 

[mtemur]

Does this mean that in your system the same wood made the sound slightly less transistorized sounding?

No, it means the wood block's effect was absolutely the same in my system. It's effect under speaker cables was totally the opposite compared to AC line.

Di you have a theory to explain why the wood block might have an opposite effect in your system?

It was the same results both on my system and my friend's system. The effect of the wood was not constant under every cable. It's effect under speaker cable was the opposite under AC line. Sorry for my inadequate English.

 

[Rensselaer]

What wood was used? Was the grain parallel to the wire or transverse? Was the wood sourced from above the equator or below the equator and which side (towards sun or opposite to sun) was used? How thick, how wide, how long? Relative humidity? Rip sawed or cross cut? Edges sanded? Wax or shellac or nude?

 

[PeterA]

No, it means the wood block's effect was absolutely the same in my system. It's effect under speaker cables was totally the opposite compared to AC line.


It was the same results both on my system and my friend's system. The effect of the wood was not constant under every cable. It's effect under speaker cable was the opposite under AC line. Sorry for my inadequate English.

Your English is fine. I understood exactly what you wrote the first time about the two systems and about the opposite effects on the power and speaker wires.

 

[PeterA]

What wood was used? Was the grain parallel to the wire or transverse? Was the wood sourced from above the equator or below the equator and which side (towards sun or opposite to sun) was used? How thick, how wide, how long? Relative humidity? Rip sawed or cross cut? Edges sanded? Wax or shellac or nude?

These are actually good questions and I experimented with some of these variables in my system. The type of wood definitely matters. The dimension of the wood definitely matters. I did compare rip sawed or cross cut and I did not hear a difference. And I compared waxed oiled or nude and did not hear a difference.

 

[mtemur]

What wood was used? Was the grain parallel to the wire or transverse? Was the wood sourced from above the equator or below the equator and which side (towards sun or opposite to sun) was used? How thick, how wide, how long? Relative humidity? Rip sawed or cross cut? Edges sanded? Wax or shellac or nude?

Type of wood certainly matters. We (a couple of friends) usually use ebony, Gabon or Macassar ebony to be more specific. Waxed or nude also makes as much difference as wood type. We usually do experiments with shellacked ebony and sometimes with Canadian maple. For example a 30 or 40 layers shellacked ebony stand under a component hugely differs from nude ebony. Differs in a good way but I'm not very fond of ebony (long story). In the above mentioned example we used a very hard Japanese wood, 5cm cube, nude, sanded. I don't know the type, looks plain wood but extremely hard.


I only mentioned this example to point out how strangely everything makes a difference. I additionally use ebony under cables. There are lots of tweaks like this but occasionally sounding good. Reliable evaluation takes at least two weeks time. Not a 10 sec decision.