Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?

[bonzo75]

Bullshit. People listen to music more than ever; it’s the industries job to capitalize on it. Headfi came out of nowhere and is 20x the size of hifi. Todays hifi industry is all about getting the six figure sale to the 70 year old while letting the wife pick out the Wilson color (yes, a dealer told me that).

ask Mike Bovaird how they market the Florida show to younger people.

Headphones and music are completely different. You can listen to music on iPod and headphones and that will easily be the trend. To confuse with hifi and head fi is just being dishonest

 

[morricab]

Once again, lets flip the narative. Maybe our wives are correct. They turn the music on for the music. Not the equipment. Are we really uninterested in music.

I’m interested in both and see no problem with that. Neither women or men are correct...they are just different...

 

[morricab]

I suspect audio is supported on the backs of the dying AARP male crowd.

So you want trade show models like you see at car shows?

Rockna had some nice models in their room in Munich...they were selling hifi I think...

 

[twitch]

I never did that maybe on the odd man.
but wife does not do much on hobbies I do.

I suspect I've been married longer than you are old...........

 

[PeterA]

My wife will spend $100 on a rapid CPR Covid test so that she can join her two book clubs and garden club and socialize with the other women. I will spend that hundred dollars on an LP recommendation by Tang and seen in his awesome system videos so I can isolate myself in my listening room and not socialize with anyone.

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. If they have different levels of interest in particular hobbies, so be it.

 

[bonzo75]

My wife will spend $100 on a rapid CPR Covid test so that she can join her two book clubs and garden club and socialize with the other women. I will spend that hundred dollars on an LP recommendation by Tang and seen in his awesome system videos so I can isolate myself in my listening room and not socialize with anyone.

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. If they have different levels of interest in particular hobbies, so be it.

Maybe if we watched our language your wife will direct the spend on PCR to board a flight to travel and listen to audio systems

 

[Ron Resnick]

And there are very few young males coming into the hobby too and that's how it is going to be. Let's face it, it is a dying hobby, for various reasons that have nothing to do with forum behavior.

Kedar,

When was the last time you went to a CanJam headphone show?

I met Marc Meisner, a new audiophile friend from Clubhouse, there. Marc is a very serious, experienced, long-time analog-focused audiophile who has had, among other loudspeakers, big Magnepans and MBL 101E Mk. II.

I thought I was going to CanJam just to have drinks in the lobby and visit with Jason Lord of The Source AV, but Marc actually wanted me to audition headphones and headphone amps. The place was packed with Millenials, Gen Zs and even teenagers totally into music via streaming, portable devices and headphones.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Rockna had some nice models in their room in Munich...they were selling hifi I think...

I guess Rockna decided to forfeit the female audio market?

Brad, did you take your wife with you to enjoy the "nice models"?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Sigh ...

Ron, you did not ask a question about causality. You asked if something you said occurred to me and you asked it in a rather snarky way. My reply to you was no less serious. None of this has anything to do with logic.

Your terms of service may not have changed but it seems your attitude toward them has - or your attitude toward forum members. I don't think your new approach has gone over well. Same for the intrusive deletion of posts you think are not in accord with what you believe is the topic of a thread.

Your terms of service have nothing to do with different sexes and it seems you have taken on this 'women in audio forums' topic either as a distraction for things not going well with the terms of service beat down or as some means of making a point in an odd way about a few discourteous posters. Instead of falling back on some pleading about women, perhaps you should address those people instead - you've seen the reactions otherwise.

Dear Tim,

Thank you for your thoughts here.

1) I apologize if you received my question as snarky. I was crediting your backgound as a logician.

2) I disagree with your view that I did not ask your opinion about causality. You stated a conclusion "[there are few women in this hobby] by personal choice."

I asked you if this might be the result of men's attitudes towards women in the hobby. I might instead have asked. "Do you think this might be caused by men's attitudes toward women in the hobby?"

I truly do not understand how my question framed as a question about causality was interpreted by you as not asking about causality.

3) This thread is about the essay posted in the opening post of this thread. That essay discussed at length women in audio. I posted my thoughts on that topic raised by the essay. I do not know why you are mixing my personal thoughts here about that essay with the discussion about Term of Service 2 in the thread about the definition of cordiality.

4) Normally, aside from member system threads, we let the subject matter of threads run pretty wild. But Al's immediate derailing of the topic of this thread seemed to me to be an opportunity to remind members that unless we all make some effort to tack our posts on a particular thread to the title and subject matter of that thread, then every thread could devolve into a random mess.

I think it is nice when people (honestly, including me) use the new website's very useful search function to be able to find what one is looking for without wading through pages and pages and pages of random, off-topic comments.

So, you are completely correct -- normally moderators do not delete off-topic posts. But this derailment was so immediate -- and especially since 1) we already have dozens of discussions about the pros and cons of videos of audio on many other threads, and 2) this thread is about an interesting topic very different than our usual component and music discussions -- that I saw no reason to let this thread be immediately torpedoed.

5) In no way have I viewed the discussion about Term of Service 2 in the thread about the definition of cordiality as a "beat down." I literally do not know what you are talking about. I am happy that that thread has provided people the opportunity to air directly their thoughts on the subject matter of that thread.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Headphones and music are completely different. You can listen to music on iPod and headphones and that will easily be the trend. To confuse with hifi and head fi is just being dishonest

You are lamenting that "there are very few young males coming into the hobby too and that's how it is going to be. Let's face it, it is a dying hobby." I agree that headphones are not the same as loudspeakers.

The hobby is evolving. Headphones are a gateway for young people to an appreciation about better sound. Young people are entering the hobby not through DIY Altec drivers and front-loaded horns and $100,000 turntables but through a love of music via headphones. What is wrong with that?

Jason Lord, who operates a huge headphone and headphone amp demo area in his store, The Source AV, in Torrance, CA, told me that as his headphone clients get older and get better jobs and make more money many of them come back to him to purchase loudspeakers and full audio systems.

Old people are dying. The love of music is not dying. The appreciation of music through good sound is not dying.

My Audiofile Café room on Clubhouse has over 1,900 members. The average age of them, I would guess, is about one-half the average age of WBF members. There are a lot of questions about streaming and about headphones and about turntables in the $500 to $1,000 range. We have advised many 20-somethings about putting together modest, starter vinyl play-back set-ups, and about modest DACs. As soon as anyone expresses interest in the next step up in sound quality and components I send them a link to join WBF.

 

[Al M.]

You are lamenting that "there are very few young males coming into the hobby too and that's how it is going to be. Let's face it, it is a dying hobby." I agree that headphones are not the same as loudspeakers.

The hobby is evolving. Headphones are a gateway for young people to an appreciation about better sound. Young people are entering the hobby not through DIY Altec drivers and front-loaded horns and $100,000 turntables but through a love of music via headphones. What is wrong with that?

Jason Lord, who operates a huge headphone and headphone amp demo area in his store, The Source AV, in Torrance, CA, told me that as his headphone clients get older and get better jobs and make more money many of them come back to him to purchase loudspeakers and full audio systems.

Old people are dying. The love of music is not dying. The appreciation of music through good sound is not dying.

My Audiofile Café room on Clubhouse has over 1,900 members. The average age of them, I would guess, is about one-half the average age of WBF members. There are a lot of questions about streaming and about headphones and about turntables in the $500 to $1,000 range. We have advised many 20-somethings about putting together modest, starter vinyl play-back set-ups, and about modest DACs As soon as anyone expresses interest in the next step up in sound quality and components I send them a link to join WBF.

Great post, Ron.

I personally always listened with headphones in my youth, and my first serious high end system was a system based around Stax electrostatic headphones. I went through 2 CD high-end players (Cambridge CD3 and Meridian 208) and one CD transport/DAC combo (Meridian 602/606) on it, so this was serious business, in 1990/1991.

Only then I switched to a speaker based system. But I had been an audiophile much longer, you could even say as a teen when I also cared about sound quality, even though back then I had a much more modest system.

So today's headphone enthusiasts are audiophiles just as much as people on WBF with big rig big speaker systems im big rooms.

 

[Solypsa]

I deduce from this that Elliot is not expecting to have any female clients.

then

I guess Rockna decided to forfeit the female audio market?

Brad, did you take your wife with you to enjoy the "nice models"?

Ron,

I wish to tread lightly and with all due respect. For the record I hate macho and misogynistic male-club vibes. I am into audio and cars and there is too much in both for my tastes.

That said, your comments ( imho ) may contribute to the problem. How? It is thin ice to try and represent 'what women want' or really what anyone wants by 'category'.

Your first post responds to the weird pinup art I think, and the second to the mention of female models used to promote products. I am not defending either ... yet:

Try going to a rock n roll hipster bar in, lets say Venice beach or you pick it. Of the fully tattoo'd crowd upon whom do you count the most pinup ink art? Men or women?

If I know a successful, music loving, tech industry-leading woman that thinks hot female models are...well...hot what do we say? Don't join up?

Again- I hate male jock misogynistic vibes and I wish the audiophile crowd were more diverse. Just be careful in deciding how everyone is....

 

[PeterA]

3) This thread is about the essay posted in the opening post of this thread. That essay discussed at length women in audio. I posted my thoughts on that topic raised by the essay. I do not know why you are mixing my personal thoughts here about that essay with the discussion about Term of Service 2 in the thread about the definition of cordiality.

I just read the essay. I should have avoided it and avoided this thread. My mistake.

For the most part, it seems people here enjoy listening to music on their systems and sharing their experiences. I just don't see the problems here that he is describing. If people don't like it, they should just tune out and do something else.

 

[KeithR]

My wife will spend $100 on a rapid CPR Covid test so that she can join her two book clubs and garden club and socialize with the other women. I will spend that hundred dollars on an LP recommendation by Tang and seen in his awesome system videos so I can isolate myself in my listening room and not socialize with anyone.

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. If they have different levels of interest in particular hobbies, so be it.

Women listen to music as much if not more than men. They are also more likely to go see live music which many here, including yourself, believe is the proper reference.

 

[PeterA]

Women listen to music as much if not more than men. They are also more likely to go see live music which many here, including yourself, believe is the proper reference.

I don’t doubt that. But we are doing more than just listening to music. Never once did I see a woman at my local dealerships auditioning gear. Come to think of it, Ian‘s wife to join us once. When I have dinner parties and people are sitting around listening to a nice cello Concerto or something the wives will indeed comment on the quality of the sound and music being played. But they never ask anything about the gear or what’s involved with getting that type of sound. They simply like the music and I can appreciate that.

When we go to dinner dances at social events and there’s a live big band playing there and everyone’s dressed up, a few guys sit on the side and listen to the music and how it sounds but all the wives want to do is take their husbands out on the dance floor.

I don’t think the nicknaming of some room treatment products or the banter between a few of us here has anything to do with women getting involved in the high-end.

 

[morricab]

I guess Rockna decided to forfeit the female audio market?

Brad, did you take your wife with you to enjoy the "nice models"?

She’s been to he show a couple of times...actually liked the Living Voice room and the Western Electric/Silbatone rooms quite a lot...

 

[morricab]

Women listen to music as much if not more than men. They are also more likely to go see live music which many here, including yourself, believe is the proper reference.

On high end stereos? I think not...

 

[the sound of Tao]

I don’t doubt that. But we are doing more than just listening to music. Never once did I see a woman at my local dealerships auditioning gear. Come to think of it, Ian‘s wife to join us once. When I have dinner parties and people are sitting around listening to a nice cello Concerto or something the wives will indeed comment on the quality of the sound and music being played. But they never ask anything about the gear or what’s involved with getting that type of sound. They simply like the music and I can appreciate that.

When we go to dinner dances at social events and there’s a live big band playing there and everyone’s dressed up, a few guys sit on the side and listen to the music and how it sounds but all the wives want to do is take their husbands out on the dance floor.

I don’t think the nicknaming of some room treatment products or the banter between a few of us here has anything to do with women getting involved in the high-end.

Great observations here Peter, it’s really about what we are drawn to. Just because we love music doesn’t then follow that all will go on with the great electromechanical obsession.

The initiating and connecting would be in the music… music has the nature of connection to the divine and the tribe, all ages are engaged by it, the tribe loves to sing and dance together, it’s an important point of deep connection and one of our most essential and great cultural bonds. It’s experiences of both sound and expression of feeling. We mostly all go there.

But when we try and capture that music experience in electromechanical replay at home it’s only a small number of us that are then going to want to go on and really play.

It’s the ones that are drawn to see how this all works, drawn to the machine, to go on to analyse and to decant the wine into a container… its the inventor spirit of Daedulus and unfortunately we are also then Icarus. Drawn to make… and also apparently drawn to fly just too close to the sun .

So it’s the ones among the tribe that would seek to elevate and perfect the machine and tap into the divine… so its possibly three parts music, three parts Meccano… and two parts pure party .

But for us it seems it’s a perfect cocktail for a rather particular obsession, a retreat and a lifelong pathway into understanding how things work… and then how that then can make us feel.

I suppose we tend to analyse it to death because that is part of the allure but even then that’s just part of the alchemy. Sometimes we should probably just throw ourselves into that maker’s albembic and follow the instinct to try and turn even these base materials into gold… long may we all burn brightly well till the this cycle of the work is done and alpha leads us to omega and we are back in the experience in music again… it’s a loop my dear mobius, a loop…

 

[bonzo75]

Great post, Ron.

I personally always listened with headphones in my youth, and my first serious high end system was a system based around Stax electrostatic headphones. I went through 2 CD high-end players (Cambridge CD3 and Meridian 208) and one CD transport/DAC combo (Meridian 602/606) on it, so this was serious business, in 1990/1991.

Only then I switched to a speaker based system. But I had been an audiophile much longer, you could even say as a teen when I also cared about sound quality, even though back then I had a much more modest system.

So today's headphone enthusiasts are audiophiles just as much as people on WBF with big rig big speaker systems im big rooms.

Purposefully changing subjects. Are the headphone audiophiles same as the conventional hifi audiophiles is the point.

 

[Argonaut]

A beautifully crafted piece of work @the sound of Tao … Even finer translated into the original Klingon