Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?

[Mike Lavigne]

Purposefully changing subjects. Are the headphone audiophiles same as the conventional hifi audiophiles is the point.

spend some time on the 'Summit-fi' forum of Head-fi and you will find there is no doubt a large group of headphone zealots that are full blown audiophiles, many of which also have substantial 2-channel efforts. headphones simply fit more life styles than pure 2 channel.

then you combine that with the Asian large city 2-channel presence, and i think that internationally, there is plenty of life going forward in high fidelity and audiophile-dom.

some english speaking 2 channel forums do paint a different picture maybe. although COVID has pushed many fence sitters back into 2-channel too. which has not yet played itself out.

 

[the sound of Tao]

A beautifully crafted piece of work @the sound of Tao … Even finer translated into the original Klingon

Lol many thanks dear Moon

 

[K3RMIT]

A few thoughts for one what a self centered snobby group we are
next the Avg age is young but for a good reason. not many of there age group can afford 100 k to start a system
I am long a time member there the reviews there from members not paid pro reviewers are above what we get on high end stuff we buy. I can see why but still just a little reading between the lines honesty would be nice at times
stereo phile was in the past atleast in parts gave a good picture at our level.
you can’t now or you will get sued or your post deleted as this might. i was interested in the raal open planers
just a few reads and I knew of I liked them after I heard them. you cannot ever get this level of truth at the high exp stuff we buy.
Im not saying all is bad here but the ones I like mostly get bashed by the ones who don’t but are you know experts hahaha.

 

[K3RMIT]

Ron one thing you posted makes great sense but you left it on the table
analog on headphones is the best of sound on headphones no matter how much you spend on digital. tape is better as in someways has a lower noise floor but when vinyl is right it’s above all. Please comment on this did you get to here any while there ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron one thing you posted makes great sense it you left it on the table
analog on headphones is the best of sound on headphones no matter how much you spend on digital. tape is better as in someways has a lower noise floor but when vinyl is right it’s above all. Please comment on this did you get to here any while there ?

Thank you for this question, but another analog versus digital versus tape on headphones debate has little relevance to the subject matter of this thread. Please feel free to copy and past your question over on my thread about CanJam: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/a-brief-stroll-through-the-headphone-garden-canjam-2021.33558/

Thank you.

 

[jeff1225]

I agree with many, many of the points in the posted article, including:

The community has a history of pushing away female audiophiles; we have the most female contributors of any hi-fi publication and the emails and comments that we have to delete from audiophiles are pretty disgusting.

Where does that come from? If you wouldn’t send those kind of emails or comments to your own mother or sisters — what makes sending them to women writers or forum participants acceptable?

Here again though, readers will say “but I’m not misogynistic or narcissistic,” but if we contribute to any part of the stereotype (pun intended) we contribute to all of it. And sometimes all that it takes to contribute is staying silent while others behave poorly.


* * *


“I can’t help it if your hearing is not good enough to know the difference.”

If you have ever typed those words in some online group or forum, you are definitely part of the problem and one of the reasons why the audiophile community has earned a bad reputation for being arrogant, narcissistic, and generally hostile.


These sentiments underlie much of my personal views, and are why we have and enforce our Terms of Service.

In defense of our WBF members and our WBF community I think that we here are more sensitive to, and aware of, these issues than are the members of any other audio forum.

I know some WBF members find it annoying, but beyond enforcing formally the Terms of Service I occasionally do try to prod members here to be introspective and intellectually honest, and to understand that their personal subjective audio opinions, based on their personal sonic preferences and idiosyncratic set of personal listening experiences, do not generate objective facts or maxims of universal applicability.

I’m sorry Ron i think this article is the biggest piece of shit I’ve ever read. The audiophile hobby is about GEAR as much as it’s about music. Please name one hobby that women are into that’s about gear. I can name more than a few gear based hobbies that are male oriented: motorcycles, cars, fishing, guitars, watches, bicycles, etc.

I can’t think of one primarily female hobby that is about GEAR.

This is more woke crap that ignores the biological gender differences between men and women.

 

[Al M.]

Purposefully changing subjects. Are the headphone audiophiles same as the conventional hifi audiophiles is the point.

Why is that changing the subject? What do you mean by the "same"? Both groups are audiophiles, no? Or is one group "more" audiophile than the other?

Did I become more of an audiophile after switching from headphones to speakers? I don't think so. (Of course, even today I may not meet your definition of an audiophile...)

 

[bonzo75]

Why is that changing the subject? What do you mean by "the same"? Both groups are audiophiles, no? Or is one group "more" audiophile than the other?

Did I become more of an audiophile after switching from headphones to speakers? I don't think so. (Of course, even today I may not meet your definition of an audiophile...)

Ah you are an headphone guy, that explains a lot.. Lol

 

[PeterA]

Why is that changing the subject? What do you mean by the "same"? Both groups are audiophiles, no? Or is one group "more" audiophile than the other?

Did I become more of an audiophile after switching from headphones to speakers? I don't think so. (Of course, even today I may not meet your definition of an audiophile...)

interesting set of questions Al. I do think there are significant differences between the headphone listener and the speaker listener. Headphone guys don’t have to worry about interaction with the room, speakers, speaker positioning etc. where the listening seat is located and perhaps too much or to a lesser extent what kind of amplifier is driving the headphones, though I’m not sure about that.

I think there is much more set up involvement involved when you’re not listening to headphones but to an actual pair of speakers. And there’s also probably a distinction to be made between mobile or portable stereo listeners and people who have a conventional stereo system in one place but simply listen to their LPs through headphones and a headphone amp.

I used to use a pretty high-quality portable headphone system that was battery powered when I went on two week sailboat cruises so that I could listen to music. I was younger then. Seems we both moved on to speaker based systems in rooms.

 

[bonzo75]

I’m sorry Ron i think this article is the biggest piece of shit I’ve ever read. The audiophile hobby is about GEAR as much as it’s about music. Please name one hobby that women are into that’s about gear. I can name more than a few gear based hobbies that are male oriented: motorcycles, cars, fishing, guitars, watches, bicycles, etc.

I can’t think of one primarily female hobby that is about GEAR.

This is more woke crap that ignores the biological gender differences between men and women.

Anyone who is trying to confuse this debate by consciously bringing in women's rights to music is being dishonest to themselves and the rest of us. We might as well make this about the top 0.1 percent and poor divide, or carbon emissions, or something else and express shock.

I can't believe Ron is ignoring all the hobbies women aren't in, and the men who aren't into audio, and thinks of himself as the reformer who will clean up language on the forum to get women into audio.

 

[Al M.]

Ah you are an headphone guy, that explains a lot.. Lol

Unfortunately your snarky reply is no even correct. I don't currently listen to headphones in an audiophile manner and haven't done so in a very long time. So no, I am not a headphone guy.

 

[bonzo75]

I will name a few Jeffrey. Beauty gears. Make ups. Skin care. Bags. Jewelry. Etc. Beauty can be a hobby. Fashion is also hobby. Just different type of gear to men. Women normally have interest in beauty. Many women talk and discuss skin treatment, lotions, brand name fashion items as much or more than we discuss audio gear or car, etc. It is just different interest. Not many men discuss new line of make ups from Lancome, but still some do. Maybe there is a skincare forum owner right now trying very hard to lure more men to participate in her forum right now as well.

Why am I in this thread again. This is bad virus.

I totally hate it that women use very bad language on make up forums, otherwise all of us would have been geeking over make up, skin care, and purses instead

 

[Al M.]

interesting set of questions Al. I do think there are significant differences between the headphone listener and the speaker listener. Headphone guys don’t have to worry about interaction with the room, speakers, speaker positioning etc. where the listening seat is located and perhaps too much or to a lesser extent what kind of amplifier is driving the headphones, though I’m not sure about that.

I think there is much more set up involvement involved when you’re not listening to headphones but to an actual pair of speakers.

Fair points, Peter. I wonder though how many audiophiles pay serious attention to setup and interaction of speakers with the room. And many audiophiles don't seem to pay much attention to room acoustics at all.

They crank through gear, hoping for a miracle.

 

[KeithR]

I’m sorry Ron i think this article is the biggest piece of shit I’ve ever read. The audiophile hobby is about GEAR as much as it’s about music. Please name one hobby that women are into that’s about gear. I can name more than a few gear based hobbies that are male oriented: motorcycles, cars, fishing, guitars, watches, bicycles, etc. I can’t think of one primarily female hobby that is about GEAR.

This is more woke crap that ignores the biological gender differences between men and women.

we don’t disagree often but here is one of the exceptions.

There are plenty of women into sports cars! Porsche actively markets to them. Hodinkee has female editors and writers (Cara).

But really the bottom line is you aren’t approaching Karen Sumner at a show and explaining about how you removed “room tampons” and the sound is better. It’s just common courtesy.

Tang made a comment recently joking about the size of his member post vaccine. It’s garbage and not how we conduct with each other in public. Take the jokes and wink wink attitude private.

We are better than this as a forum, no question about it. It has *nothing* about being woke. It’s about being freaking nice and respectful.

Over and out.

 

[bonzo75]

I’m sorry Ron i think this article is the biggest piece of shit I’ve ever read. The audiophile hobby is about GEAR as much as it’s about music. Please name one hobby that women are into that’s about gear. I can name more than a few gear based hobbies that are male oriented: motorcycles, cars, fishing, guitars, watches, bicycles, etc.

There are plenty of women into sports cars! Porsche actively markets to them. Hodinkee has female editors and writers (Cara).

bottom line is you aren’t approaching Karen Sumner at a show and explaining about how you removed “room tampons” and the sound is better. It’s just common courtesy.

Tang made a comment recently joking about the size of his member post vaccine. It’s garbage and not how we conduct with each other in public. Take the jokes and wink wink attitude private.

We are better than this as a forum, no question about it. It has *nothing* about being woke. It’s about being freaking nice and respectful.

Over and out.

Many different points there. One you are arguing for people to talk in a way you deem nice. That's fine. Second you interpret Tang's joke as something bad. If such humor is bad itself is debatable, and neither you nor Ron have the right to judge that for us. You don't like it, don't join that talk. Third, is an argument that either of first two, or both is affecting women participation, which is a completely unfounded assumption

 

[gian60]

Its the same with my other hobby, poker...at any given tournament there will be <10% women present. They just don't seem to like the game, the environment around poker or both. Maybe it has to do with risk taking aversion as well. What it means is that poker forums are also male dominated and that is just the way it is. There is always talk of how to include more women in the game but if they aren't interested they aren't.

You have 2 very good hobbies,but you loose more money in hifi or poker?,because all are loosing money when we change some on hifi

 

[tima]

1) I apologize if you received my question as snarky. I was crediting your backgound as a logician.

Fwiw, I don't think of myself as a logician. Although I spent half my life in the academy this is the first time I am labeled as such. I will admit to appealing to logic and reason now and then, which I do not see at odds with common sense. And as I said earlier, none of our discussion is about logic. My reaction was probably the result of what I took as the tone in your statement.

2) I disagree with your view that I did not ask your opinion about causality. You stated a conclusion "[there are few women in this hobby] by personal choice."

I asked you if this might be the result of men's attitudes towards women in the hobby. I might instead have asked. "Do you think this might be caused by men's attitudes toward women in the hobby?"

I truly do not understand how my question framed as a question about causality was interpreted by you as not asking about causality.

As I said earlier, you did not ask me about causaility.

Talking about causality is not the same thing as talking about a specific event or instance where one thing does or does not follow after another. Saying something like "Did all the bad mouthing of Wilson speakers make him leave the forum?" is not talking about causality. Examples of talking about causality might be: claiming 'there is a necessary connection between a cause and its effect', or, 'what we mean by a causal connection is merely an habituated association of ideas in our mind.' Causality was not the object of your question - and it seems odd you tried to frame it as such.

But to your main point ...

Your question to me was (I quote your words): Did it occur to a logician such as yourself that the "personal choice" decision by women not to participate in the hobby might be the result of men's attitudes toward women in the hobby?

What your question is asking is: Did a certain notion occur to me? In other words: did you think about this ? A short answer would be 'yes' or 'no'. You are asking me about my thought process. I took it as rhetorical because that is what the discussion and the OP's article were about - rhetorical because yes, I knew what the discussion was about - it was obvious. Viz, whether we (forum members) should change the way we talk in this forum better to accomodate women.

I am not about to take a position claiming anything about "men's attitudes toward women" and I was not about to fall into the trap of speculating about what those are - not in writing. Now if you want to describe what those are, that is, to say what you are talking about or what you think those attitudes are, rather than an open ended question whose answer could be criticized regardless of what that answer was, then you would be as invested in your question as much as you wanted me to be.

3) This thread is about the essay posted in the opening post of this thread. That essay discussed at length women in audio. I posted my thoughts on that topic raised by the essay. I do not know why you are mixing my personal thoughts here about that essay with the discussion about Term of Service 2 in the thread about the definition of cordiality.

This is easy - because you made the connection yourself. Consider this quote from you:

I think this attitude may be exactly why there are so few women in the hobby.

Members may need to change how they post and interact to satisfy the decorum and cordiality standard of WBF.

Did it occur to a logician such as yourself that the "personal choice" decision by women not to participate in the hobby might be the result of men's attitudes toward women in the hobby?

I did not view the above as a disconnected group of sentences. You wrappered a statement about terms of service with comments about your views on men's attitudes toward women. As already noted I took your third sentence as rhetorical.

5) In no way have I viewed the discussion about Term of Service 2 in the thread about the definition of cordiality as a "beat down." I literally do not know what you are talking about. I am happy that that thread has provided people the opportunity to air directly their thoughts on the subject matter of that thread.

Yes, I agree my statement about your postings on terms of service enforcement as a 'beat down' was not about what you viewed it as. It was about how I viewed it. You might substitute "heavy handed" for "beat down". I agree that you literally did not know what I was talking about. I already asked what brought about what I see as a change in attitude and suggested you address the 'discourteous' people directly - no more acceptance of whining '"he hurt my feelings" in private e-mails. I already posted that I had respect for your willingness to have an open discussion on your position.

 

[morricab]

You have 2 very good hobbies,but you loose more money in hifi or poker?,because all are loosing money when we change some on hifi

I lose money with hifi as you have said when changing gear but with poker I can honestly say that I win enough to afford some nice holidays and/or a nice piece of kit every year.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Anyone who thinks it's all sweetness and light on female-majority hobbies/forums/message boards might be shocked to realise that's in many cases not the reality.
Purity spirals and ostrasising females and males for wrongspeak are often set in motion and fuelled by female contributors.
You only have to see how many women in the arts and on parenting sites are super critical, bullying in many cases.
The biggest sin WBF is guilty of is boring women to tears w our tedious proseletyzing.
I don't think there's a constituency of XX individuals banging at the gates to join us if only the language and attitudes of the XYs softened.

 

[bonzo75]

In fact the one main data point we had of Chau, a lady with Vyger, Magico, Vitus, and Opus, she chose tang and Gian from the forum to be her friends. Bet she loved the jokes and chose them, they were more natural than all this woke artificiality