DS Audio Grand Master Extreme

[mtemur]

It’s a very well known fact that audiophiles always like their systems no matter how superior the demoed setup is. Opposite is almost unheard of.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It’s a very well known fact that audiophiles always like their systems no matter how superior the demoed setup is. Opposite is almost unheard of.

A fact? And "well known," no less? I don't assume this is due entirely to intellectual dishonesty or to cognitive dissonance, which I think is your implication. (Forgive me if I am incorrect.)

Cost issues and space issues aside, audiophiles typically build systems to achieve the particular sonic cues which idiosyncratically allow each audiophile to achieve his/her sonic objective.

Since a demo system likely is not focusing conscientiously on achieving the particular sonic cue subjectively selected and focused on by any particular audiophile, it makes some sense that when that audiophile goes home he/she finds his/her system to be more convincing -- at least based on that particular sonic cue -- even if the demoed system is superior in other sonic attributes.

 

[Another Johnson]

It’s a very well known fact that audiophiles always like their systems no matter how superior the demoed setup is. Opposite is almost unheard of.

Actually I’ve preferred demos many times over the last 45 years. That’s how I got to my present system.

 

[bonzo75]

A fact? And "well known," no less?

you will see a large number of comments, starting with Marc’s, where the audiophile auditioned a system, came home and was either satisfied, or preferred, his. Not denying he didn’t but often can be out of familiarity. That said the lambda is the most musical of the Lyra carts and the first Lyra I preferred, and the DS IME is digital so I am inclined to believing another johnson’s report as compared to the many other Johnsons who prefer their own systems

 

[thedudeabides]

Not to be annoying, which I'm sure this question unavoidably is, but how can this be? Isn't this merely an incremental evolution of the same cartridge?

Thank you for the observation but, not to be annoying, quite ironic on WBF.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That said the lambda is the most musical of the Lyra carts and the first Lyra I preferred, and the DS IME is digital so I am inclined to believing another johnson’s report as compared to the many other Johnsons who prefer their own systems

I find Another Johnson's report very understandable, and persuasive myself. (I respect greatly the DS optical cartridges, and I prefer them to several moving coil cartridges, but I don't love them.)

 

[mtemur]

A fact? And "well known," no less? I don't assume this is due entirely to intellectual dishonesty or to cognitive dissonance, which I think is your implication. (Forgive me if I am incorrect.)

It’s rarely because of dishonesty, mostly because of feeling successful and smarter. I never heard anybody complaining his/her system being too expensive for it’s sound. Oppositely everyone says it’s punching way above it’s weight, sounds 2X or 3X better etc. If everyone’s system is 2X better for it’s price tag then who’s buying overrated products?

Satisfaction of thinking that you achieved a better sounding system at home 1/3 price of the system you’re demoing makes you feel smarter compared to other audiophiles. Due to subjective nature of this hobby it’s impossible to measure better sound. If it would have been like racing cars we would put systems on a race track and find out which is better precisely. But it isn’t.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Oppositely everyone says it’s punching way above it’s weight, sounds 2X or 3X better etc. Then who’s buying overrated products?

Satisfaction of thinking that you achieved a better sounding system at home 1/3 price of the system you’re demoing make you feel smarter than other audiophiles. Due to subjective nature of this hobby it’s impossible to measure better sound. If it would have been like racing cars we put systems on a race track and find out which is better precisely. But it isn’t.

Here, I agree.

 

[bonzo75]

Here, I agree.

he was being polite, just telling you non controversially that audiophiles are biased towards their own system. No matter how much it costs, it punches way above its weight and was a smart choice

 

[Ron Resnick]

he was being polite, just telling you non controversially that audiophiles are biased towards their own system. No matter how much it costs, it punches way above its weight and was a smart choice

I understand. My focus here has been to point out that there are legitimate reasons relating to the process by which one chooses one's components basic on the particular sonic cues one is trying to cultivate that audiophiles are biased towards their own systems.

 

[gds7368]

I’m not a “reviewer” and since it’s been over a month since the audition, it would be quite bold of me to pontificate on specifics. With that said, I wrote on another forum at the time that I had the sensation of streaming DSD, which I like … but in a direct shootout in my system, vinyl generally beats this.

The dealer made a major deal out of “noise floor” improvements. The DS noise floor was excellent … but so is mine.

The DS cartridge is “optical,” but it turns out that the optical sensor is in the cartridge motor, not in the data pickup (stylus). They are using conventional styli. You have all the alignment and set up issues with DS as you have in a conventional system. In fact, the set up specialist remarked off hand “I would rather set up a conventional cartridge. It is easier to see what you’re doing.”

There was a sweetness to the demos that some might be drawn to. Who knows if this is due to the cartridge or the equalization.

In my system I am impressed by the wonderful ability of either TT to resolve layers and present a holographic image. The imaging of the $60k DS set up was good too, but it did not strike me as better than that presented by my vintage rig. It was definitely not better than my current rig. Both my LP12s do a great job of “carrying the tune.” I’m often unconsciously foot tapping, drumming, or conducting … not libation driven. Just muse driven. Maybe I’d get to that point with DS if I lived with it. But I’m not there with dCS Rossini streaming.

I think DS will delight someone with deep pockets and a good dealer to set it up IF THEIR CURRENT REFERENCE IS HI DEF STREAMING.

Someone whose reference is a current spec, well set up LP12, with mid to high spec Lyra cartridge may be less drawn to DS.

I respect your time and experience, and I would really enjoy hearing your system! My personal reference is live unamplified music, not anything coming from a stereo system. But as far as stereos go, my reference is 1/2 inch 30 IPS R2R - well mastered and as close to the source material as possible. That being said I REALLY like what the DS Audio components do with vinyl. So much so that I'm virtually 100% vinyl listening at this point (though I have an in-coming R2R deck next month that *should* change that). DS Audio sounds excellent in comparison to my R2R listening, though certainly not equivalent as I find well-sourced R2R without peer in a stereo (noting very limited source selection). I have the DS GM EX on order as an upgrade to by GM cartridge, and it's a leap of faith as I haven't heard it yet. FWIW I don't sense any "sweetness" in the GM cartridge to my ears in my system, as in zero.

 

[Another Johnson]

The sweetness could be attributed to anything. The speakers, interconnects, room, etc. It could easily be an artifact of that particular system. It was not a criticism. And I did not intend to tag DS with that descriptor.

In general, it wasn’t my intention to criticize the DS system. I can see why someone else might be attracted to it. DS does provide an “audiophile worthy” experience.

FWIW, I did not go to audition the DS gear. The audition was just a serendipitous byproduct of my visit to pick up a new phono cartridge. The sales staff really wanted me to hear it. I’m known to be influenced by demos and to buy stuff.

Had I fallen in love with DS, my history is that I would be drawn toward it, like a moth to a flame. The fact that it’s not for me is pretty much irrelevant to others. I’m not a reviewer and would not have said as much as I did had I not been asked.

 

[craigr]

Has anyone compared the DS GM or GM EX with the Soundsmith Strain Gauge? I have the latter (on an AMG turntable with their 12" turbo arm) and find the resolution, intonation, sound stage, etc truly superb, but have never been able to do a direct comparison. Thanks

 

[KeithR]

I agree that the DS models I have heard till the master (not heard these top 2 grand and grand extreme) have high resolution but are highly digital sounding (with the bad connotation of digital compared to vinyl, lest I dare offend the couple of digital aficionados we have left)

They seem like upgrades for people in the Lyra sonics camp.

 

[Another Johnson]

They seem like upgrades for people in the Lyra sonics camp.

I’ve been using Lyra cartridges for 5+ years, and will continue. I think I made it quite clear in posts above that I don’t think that DS (through the $60k level) is an upgrade.

 

[BR549]

Not to be annoying, which I'm sure this question unavoidably is, but how can this be? Isn't this merely an incremental evolution of the same cartridge?

Can you describe how this new version of the cartridge improved the sound quality to your ears?

Thank you!

Not annoying at all and apologies for my delayed response.

I moved from the second tier to the top tier EMM (DS-EQ1) and from the DS-003 cartridge to the grandmaster. At each stage, the thing that I loved about the DSAudio was the lower noise floor (yes, almost CD like on a clean well preserved album) and the "speed" of the cartridge. It just seems to be more precise to my ear than my previous MM/MC cartridges. The Grandmaster EX provided a huge jump in that speed and resulting resolution and a somewhat bigger soundstage, without losing the overall coherence of the presentation. E.g., on jazz recordings, I better appreciate the nuance of the drums and cymbals (and everything) as there is just so much more detail provided - without it sounding analytical, etc. I did not hear a lowering of the noise floor with the EX, but I do think the optical system provides a lower noise floor inherently. Unlike one of the comments above, I think it gives you the speed and some of the lower noise floor of digital, without otherwise sounding digital - best of both worlds.

To my ear, and these sorts of statements are inherently subjective, it is a quite big jump from the grandmaster and justified the extra expense (I got full credit for my grandmaster with my dealer). I tested it at home on my system (against the grandmaster) and it wasn't close - I knew I would buy it (despite my best efforts to avoid doing so) by the end of the first side of vinyl.

Hope that helps. Some may not like the closed nature of the DSA ecosystem, but that's OK with me for now, and I really love the sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That helps a lot! Thank you for explaining!

 

[Alrainbow]

They seem like upgrades for people in the Lyra sonics camp.

Kedar they don’t sound digital I thought this too.
I can’t say lower models but the one just below top is very good. Steve on here has one on the sakora table. I heard ds at shows and hated them. Until dr vinyl had a setup at axpona
my thinking it was something in the other rooms
One was boulder amp preamp and Sonos FABER speakers
but even when I asked them to play vinyl on table non ds audio it was the same hard sound.
at axpona same table in two rooms one ds audio and the other was doshi audio.
Ina direct compare its analog to my ears and dr vinyl has commented below to confirm. But top analog sounding no doubt
My
Post has been edited for correct comments

 

[Alrainbow]

Sound smith stuff I love but the strain gage I felt was not great. Now this is in a tiny room st shows
So I can’t say how this can be In a proper room setup.

 

[bonzo75]

Ina direct compare its analog sounding not a hint at f digital.
Now I think there methods are not digital but I can’t confirm
But top analog sounding no doubt

I did direct compare with MSL and the master. The MSL was going through an Allnic H8000 phono. Two others (one being a lower model) were compared to the digital. Depends what LPs you are using for the audition as well