Ethernet cables to and from your switch?

[Republicoftexas69]

TheFlash wrote,

”I can't find anything published by a scientfic journal or similar which talks about directionality in wires. If this is a thing, surely it affects more than music? No offence to Audioquest or Nordost but I'm struggling to get my head around what is suggested might be happening electrically, whether measurable (I'm not of that camp) or not.”

I never said it was in a scientific journal or similar. I assume you looked through all scientific journals to get your answer.

I’m going to help you out. Here is shat I wrote over in a thread regarding fuses several days ago,

“If memory serves HiFi Tuning used to have a symbol on the fuse, a diode I think, which was to alert the user the fuse was directional. As I recall the diode symbol with an arrow wasn’t necessarily pointing the direction the fuse should go in the circuit but rather just a way to keep track of which way to flip the fuse when listening for correct directionality.

Not to mention the *fuse data sheets* that were published on HiFi Tuning’s web site - are they still there? - that provided evidence of electrical directionality, I.e., the voltage drop lower is in “correct direction,” not only for their fuses but all fuses that were tested, including stock run of the mill fuses. The data sheets also showed the positive electrical effect of cryogenically treating fuses, as I recall the tests were performed by an independent testing company.””

As always, the proof is in the listening.

 

[NigelB]

I’ll leave you guys to it. Yes, I have looked and drawn a blank so clearly this important dimension of conductors does not affect sensitive industrial applications which require clean current.
This feels more like religion than audio science (and no I don’t frequent ASR and do not insist on measurements ruling my world). I do follow directional markers because (a) I might as well and (b) there may be something structural like a filter which is meant to be at one end rather than the other. I’ve never tried reversing a cable, even one which is a plain copper no-filters design; apparently I’d find it coarse and unlistenable. Will experiment one day.

Enjoy the music.

 

[Geoffkait]

I’ll leave you guys to it. Yes, I have looked and drawn a blank so clearly this important dimension of conductors does not affect sensitive industrial applications which require clean current.
This feels more like religion than audio science (and no I don’t frequent ASR and do not insist on measurements ruling my world). I do follow directional markers because (a) I might as well and (b) there may be something structural like a filter which is meant to be at one end rather than the other. I’ve never tried reversing a cable, even one which is a plain copper no-filters design; apparently I’d find it coarse and unlistenable. Will experiment one day.

Enjoy the music.

No one said it’s not clean current or affects sensitive industry applications. We audiophiles are aware of it because it’s audible.

 

[Roger]

I have entreq olympis rj45 cable in my system .
qsa router and switsch

 

[NigelB]

I have entreq olympis rj45 cable in my system .
qsa router and switsch

What did it replace? How does it sound by comparison?

 

[Roger]

I had a asus router before and 2 switsch . after put qsa router and switsch
and after 50 ours the sound is more directry bas and clear sound

 

[J007B]

After about a week and a half with my new Ansuz D2 Powerswitch (Ethernet switch) Ansuz products continue to amaze me. The clarity, lack of colorization, and ink black noise floor is what I've been searching for over the years. Ansuz cables, and products completely get out of the way of the music path. Only halfway through the break in process I can't fathom how it will get any better, but I know from experience it will.

 

[NigelB]

@Republicoftexas69 Don't you believe in keeping the directionality the same, the gentleman from Melco told us they mark one end of their C100 cable not because it sounds better one way or the other, but to enable the customer to keep it the same direction no matter how many times you remove the cable and then re-install.

The Melco C100 is structurally directional: the shield is grounded at one end and floating at the other. This allows the customer to ensure any RFI picked up by the shield itself is directed as required, typically upstream ie if you used one from switch to streamer, you’d be advised to install the grounded end at the switch. In my book this clarity is a positive design attribute which I’m surprised more cable manufacturers don’t also implement. It is of course nothing at all to do with the usual arguments about whether conductors themselves are inherently, or become in use, directional.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

The Melco C100 is structurally directional: the shield is grounded at one end and floating at the other. This allows the customer to ensure any RFI picked up by the shield itself is directed as required, typically upstream ie if you used one from switch to streamer, you’d be advised to install the grounded end at the switch. In my book this clarity is a positive design attribute which I’m surprised more cable manufacturers don’t also implement. It is of course nothing at all to do with the usual arguments about whether conductors themselves are inherently, or become in use, directional.

Sure okay.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Goodnight

 

[Republicoftexas69]

@Republicoftexas69 Don't you believe in keeping the directionality the same, the gentleman from Melco told us they mark one end of their C100 cable not because it sounds better one way or the other, but to enable the customer to keep it the same direction no matter how many times you remove the cable and then re-install.

Funny installed the Melco C100 on my sons Inuous Statement and could hear the difference in directionality. He was shocked. What say you he is an EE to boot, he like you was a doubter. Not sure what to make of it? Not sure why this makes some angry.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

What do you mean by directional though? Yes, most (all?) wire will have been through a directional process eg extrusion but it has ever been thus. Do you mean this has an impact on sound quality? That a signal moves better/faster/quieter or something else in the direction of manufacture than in the opposite direction?
I guess there are at least a couple of questions buried in that:
- how do we know which is the "right" direction?
- what do we do about it if we do know? I think most of us here would draw the line at unwinding and reversing transformer wire... or reversing internal wires in a component...

I suggest generally not worrying about this unless we know for certain there is a mechanism by which installing wires in the "right" direction improves sound quality.

There are notable exceptions though. Some manufacturers designate cable directionality not just as an adornment but because there is something structurally different in the cable. For example, Townshend speaker cables use a (Zobel?) filter at one end, and - back on topic - the Melco C100 has its shield grounded at only one end. These are structurally directional, we're not talking molecular alignment or whatever.

What Is Cable Directionality? - Understanding Directional Cables

Learn about the benefits of using directional cables at Wireworld. Here's our blog with everything you need to know about high-quality directional cables.

wireworldcable.com

 

[agisthos]

I have 4 Melco C100 cables in my system. They are directional and perform best with the label/grounded end at the switch and the floating end at the final component such as streamer or tv.

This was also the case with a NAS, which despite sending data back to the switch, performed best treating it as a final device, and connecting to it with the floating end.

The Melco C100 is a real steal for its price and it easily bested my Nordost Heimdall Ethernet. I just don’t know how it compares to current flavor of month network cables.

There is something to this grounded/floated issue that should be looked into more.

 

[NigelB]

I have 4 Melco C100 cables in my system. They are directional and perform best with the label/grounded end at the switch and the floating end at the final component such as streamer or tv.

This was also the case with a NAS, which despite sending data back to the switch, performed best treating it as a final device, and connecting to it with the floating end.

The Melco C100 is a real steal for its price and it easily bested my Nordost Heimdall Ethernet. I just don’t know how it compares to current flavor of month network cables.

There is something to this grounded/floated issue that should be looked into more.

Perfect, many thanks for thism confirmatory response. The C100 is structurally directional and you are finding they perform best if installed as directed and as those of us who sometimes get asked this question would recommend.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[NigelB]

What Is Cable Directionality? - Understanding Directional Cables

Learn about the benefits of using directional cables at Wireworld. Here's our blog with everything you need to know about high-quality directional cables.

wireworldcable.com

The fact that you reposted this, as if it addresses my point which it does not, suggests you agree with its opening premise "What is cable directionality? It’s all about grain structure!". I wholly disagree. If you have any peer-reviewed/scientifically published paper which says otherwise, please point us to it. If grain structure influenced signal accuracy, there would be warning stickers all over cable installations in science labs, nuclear facilities, etc and research papers all around us reinforcing this, but there simply aren't.

Melco's directionality is a completely different, structurally based, wholly rational case. Melco say nothing about grain structure, about directionality at the molecular level, and hats off to them for not doing so. They are aware of the noise-on-the-shield issue and address it logically. As @agisthos says "There is something to this grounded/floated issue that should be looked into more". Couldn't agree more.

As committed audiophiles, we all know that we make demands of our system components which other fields including scientific and industrial ones might not... in pursuit of audio perfection, cable directionality might well be a thing if the manufacturer has designed it to be so. But conductor directionality is not.

 

[NigelB]

Funny installed the Melco C100 on my sons Inuous Statement and could hear the difference in directionality. He was shocked. What say you he is an EE to boot, he like you was a doubter. Not sure what to make of it? Not sure why this makes some angry.

II'd be pleased not shocked.

I'm not a doubter! Certainly not regarding structurally determined directionality like the grounded/floatimg shield of the C100, which is designed with directionality in mind and you've just confirmed the design works. This is great news for all!

You really need to read my posts. Structurally designed directionaility I get because it's an actual thing; generalising this to all cables because of supposed conductor directionality is not justifiable.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have seen a few articles around this topic. Unfortunately, I cannot find the image with various microscopic sections under various "pull speeds," temp, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight (she's on the chair at the moment).

"The effect of grain boundaries on the strength and electrical conductivity of annealed copper wires was studied. After annealing at 100 °C for 30 min, the copper wires retained a fiber-like structure. The increase in electrical conductivity is believed to stem from the decrease of crystallographic defects introduced by drawing. Recrystallization occurred when the annealing temperature reached 150 °C. The formation of small recrystallized grains led to the introduction of additional grain boundaries perpendicular to the drawing direction, resulting in a slight decrease in electrical conductivity."

Journal of Materials Research and Technology​

Volume 26, September–October 2023, Pages 1459-1468

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2238785423018239

I don't personally think it's a stretch that grain directionality makes a difference in sound, but it would likely be a part of a "system" containing many variables, and may be difficult to measure, other than with ears and one's brain. Not everyone hears everything.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

...I have seen a few articles around this topic. Unfortunately, I cannot find the image with various microscopic sections under various "pull speeds," temp, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight (she's on the chair at the moment).

"The effect of grain boundaries on the strength and electrical conductivity of annealed copper wires was studied. After annealing at 100 °C for 30 min, the copper wires retained a fiber-like structure. The increase in electrical conductivity is believed to stem from the decrease of crystallographic defects introduced by drawing. Recrystallization occurred when the annealing temperature reached 150 °C. The formation of small recrystallized grains led to the introduction of additional grain boundaries perpendicular to the drawing direction, resulting in a slight decrease in electrical conductivity."

Journal of Materials Research and Technology​

Volume 26, September–October 2023, Pages 1459-1468

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2238785423018239

I don't personally think it's a stretch that grain directionality makes a difference in sound, but it would likely be a part of a "system" containing many variables, and may be difficult to measure, other than with ears and one's brain. Not everyone hears everything.

Most excellent paper.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

@Republicoftexas69 Don't you believe in keeping the directionality the same, the gentleman from Melco told us they mark one end of their C100 cable not because it sounds better one way or the other, but to enable the customer to keep it the same direction no matter how many times you remove the cable and then re-install.

You should give this a read

...I have seen a few articles around this topic. Unfortunately, I cannot find the image with various microscopic sections under various "pull speeds," temp, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight (she's on the chair at the moment).

"The effect of grain boundaries on the strength and electrical conductivity of annealed copper wires was studied. After annealing at 100 °C for 30 min, the copper wires retained a fiber-like structure. The increase in electrical conductivity is believed to stem from the decrease of crystallographic defects introduced by drawing. Recrystallization occurred when the annealing temperature reached 150 °C. The formation of small recrystallized grains led to the introduction of additional grain boundaries perpendicular to the drawing direction, resulting in a slight decrease in electrical conductivity."

Journal of Materials Research and Technology​

Volume 26, September–October 2023, Pages 1459-1468

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2238785423018239

I don't personally think it's a stretch that grain directionality makes a difference in sound, but it would likely be a part of a "system" containing many variables, and may be difficult to measure, other than with ears and one's brain. Not everyone hears everything.

 

[NigelB]

I’m going to read this when I can give it real focus. I expect it to raise as many questions as it answers! These include whether this grain is in any sense directional; if so, whether and how an audio cable manufacturer knows in which direction the grain runs and whether a cable usually sounds better if oriented with of against the grain; and whether the grain changes in audio use (including whether directionality does or can change in use). Will report back.