Ethics of Switching Seats at a Classical Concert

[dan31]

Is it ethical to take a much better seat than you purchased? Answer is no, it is unethical. Lots of people do it so no one thinks different.

I was at the SF ballet this weekend and several people came forward for the final act to get a better seat. I don’t think they paid the premium that I paid to enjoy our seats.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I don’t think they paid the premium that I paid to enjoy our seats.

How, precisely, does this impose a negative externality on you?

 

[Steve Williams]

Two years ago when a group of us were in St Petersburg Russia and we attended the ballet one night to watch Swan Lake. We had excellent seats in about the 10th row center. The row in front was empty. Just before the opening about 8 young kids sat down in the seats. We thought they were moving forward from cheap seats to these. They then began to speak English and soon after we were engaged in conversation. These kids were all music students from Stanford studying abroad and the tickets were given to them by their school IIRC

 

[dan31]

How, precisely, does this impose a negative externality on you?

I have to make a decent donation to the SF ballet just to have the ability to pay more for my premium seating.

The free for all seating means those who have given additional to the arts sit behind someone who has not.

Why have any rules or permissions if they are meaningless?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have to make a decent donation to the SF ballet just to have the ability to pay more for my premium seating.

The free for all seating means those who have given additional to the arts sit behind someone who has not.

Why have any rules or permissions if they are meaningless?

You are describing a free rider problem, not a negative externality visited specifically upon you.

 

[astrotoy]

We go to about 70 concerts a year (almost all classical). Most of these are in series and we usually also donate to those series. One of the perks of being a donor at a certain level or higher is that we are guaranteed the better seats in the price range we select. Others may pay the same ticket price or less, but they are not guaranteed the better seats. However if there are better empty seats available, which you can tell only available after intermission, then those are up for grabs. In some cases people don't try to move up because of the risk that the people who bought the tickets for those seats are latecomers and then they have to move back into their original seats and it isn't worth the bother. In many cases there are no better seats that are not filled, so there is nothing to move up to. The key is that buying a top priced ticket (often with an extra donation) will guarantee you the better seats, otherwise you may or may not luck out. There may be some great empty seats, but you are not the first to claim them.

I don't mind people moving to take the better empty seats, since that gives them a better seat to see and hear the concert and it doesn't do me any harm (no negative externality). Sort of like sitting in business class in an airplane and some frequent flyer has enough status to move from coach to business class.

There are also often cases where tickets have been returned shortly before you go online to buy tickets and you luck out getting some great tickets for a performance that has been sold out. Often that happens only a day or two before the performance. Of course, much of the time there are no returns or you don't log in at the right time to grab them.

Larry

 

[PeterA]

Yes. There is a difference. Your analogy is incorrect. We treat all classical concert hall as economy class (or all of it as first class). So you are in the same class. The analogy is more similar to you getting into a crowded train for a 5 hour ride, and having to stand. If a seat vacates, you will sit down as space becomes available

There is different tier pricing for the classical concerts I attend. That is why I brought up first class v. coach class. If you are moving from cheap seats to good orchestra seats, it is not anything like a crowded train where it is one ticket price and a first come first served approach to getting a seat versus standing up. I don't understand your analogy.

I am also waiting for you to explain what you mean by "society's money" and your comment that "Peter is leaving society's money on the table". What do you mean by that?

 

[bonzo75]

There is different tier pricing for the classical concerts I attend. That is why I brought up first class v. coach class. If you are moving from cheap seats to good orchestra seats, it is not anything like a crowded train where it is one ticket price and a first come first served approach to getting a seat versus standing up. I don't understand your analogy.

I am also waiting for you to explain what you mean by "society's money" and your comment that "Peter is leaving society's money on the table". What do you mean by that?

It means by not letting someone shift and enjoy the concert when the seat is empty, that person is losing out. His money is totally wasted.

The thing is you view this as someone is gaming the system for costs... Getting into economy and sneaking to first class.

We view it differently, people who are late to get a key seat, yet they want to attend the concert, so the only way is to first get in then find an appropriate seat. I will never watch a concert from a poor seat, I would rather go home mid way

 

[marty]

Marty

We did it in Chicago in the box we were in

Steve, that doesn't count. That is the official policy for first tier boxes at CSO. Seats are not assigned individually and you're supposed to switch seats at intermission with your neighbors. Fortunately, we had folks in the box with us who didn't mind staying in the 3rd row of seats as we rotated in the first 2 rows. Besides, if they tried to displace us from the first row, I would have "smacked them upside the head"...

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve, that doesn't count. That is the official policy for first tier boxes at CSO. Seats are not assigned individually and you're supposed to switch seats at intermission with your neighbors. Fortunately, we had folks in the box with us who didn't mind staying in the 3rd row of seats as we rotated in the first 2 rows. Besides, if they tried to displace us from the first row, I would have "smacked them upside the head"...

what really fascinated me about that switch was the sound in the same box was different in the first row than in the 3rd row.

 

[marty]

I do this all the time.

Yeah, but you're there so often the people around you probably just shrug their shoulders and say "well, he works here, so it's OK".

 

[Steve Williams]

Yeah, but you're there so often the people around you probably just shrug their shoulders and say "well, he works here, so it's OK".

It's Ked's blonde hair that makes them think he belongs in those better seats

 

[NorthStar]

Thanks Larry for sharing your view from vast experience in assisting @ classical concerts.

* There must be as many views as there are people.
____

"Oh, did you see that young man moving to that better empty seat?
Yes I saw that; I should have moved first."

 

[KeithR]

My more nuanced answer:

If you are walking down from 3rd floor terrace to front orchestra, maybe I'd be bothered a bit, but usually that isn't the case and hence I don't find it a big issue. (at Disney Hall there is rarely an empty seat anyways)

At sporting events (especially baseball), people move all the time because season ticketholders often don't show up for 82 home games. You often see it in the late innings and most don't have a problem with it - they do have staff checking tickets for the first few innings.

 

[NorthStar]

"Oh you didn't hear the sad news? Stanley just passed away."

 

[PeterA]

It means by not letting someone shift and enjoy the concert when the seat is empty, that person is losing out. His money is totally wasted.

The thing is you view this as someone is gaming the system for costs... Getting into economy and sneaking to first class.

We view it differently, people who are late to get a key seat, yet they want to attend the concert, so the only way is to first get in then find an appropriate seat. I will never watch a concert from a poor seat, I would rather go home mid way

So, the guy's money is totally wasted because he voluntarily bought a seat which he does not want. That's a good one. And somehow you refer to this as "society's money". You have totally lost me on this one. Perhaps you mean that society has subsidized the arts in your country, so everyone pays through taxes and then you as the concert goer are entitled to sit in the best seat possible, as long as it is available. But wait, you paid for your ticket, so how does that work?

I guess where you go to hear classical concerts, the ushers allow you to move up and get a better seat for free. You almost make it seem like you are making a sport of this. So, you know ahead of time that you are paying a lesser amount for a poor seat, and hoping that you can upgrade for free. Is that what you do? Really? But as I wrote before, it may just be cultural differences.

I thought we were talking about different seating sections for different prices and moving when you see a better seat that is empty than the one you paid for. To me, the practice you describe only makes sense if it is open seating for the same ticket prices. If people are not assigned seats, then it is a free for all and you can go to where you please. That is fine, but that is not what Ron's OP seems to be about. He described a whole plan of attack, seeing the target, and then going for it at the opportune moment. Sounds like you and he are describing different scenarios.

 

[bonzo75]

No you are totally wrong you are not reading whay I am writing. You are still going on against the strawman guy purposefully gaming costs

 

[PeterA]

No you are totally wrong you are not reading whay I am writing. You are still going on against the strawman guy purposefully gaming costs

We view it differently, people who are late to get a key seat, yet they want to attend the concert, so the only way is to first get in then find an appropriate seat. I will never watch a concert from a poor seat, I would rather go home mid way

I am trying to quote you directly. I guess the difference between us is that you buy the bad seat "to first get in" and hope to get "an appropriate seat" once you are in the concert hall, and I simply don't buy the bad seat and go home instead because I'd rather not move to a more "appropriate seat" for which I did not pay.

 

[bonzo75]

I am trying to quote you directly. I guess the difference between us is that you buy the bad seat "to first get in" and hope to get "an appropriate seat" once you are in the concert hall, and I simply don't buy the bad seat and go home instead because I'd rather not move to a more "appropriate seat" for which I did not pay.

No not at all. I just posted a whole number of tickets yesterday where I had bought my preferred seats at the max price and I won't be shifting those. I even said so in another post.

I will later post extremely cheap seats bought at a smaller chamber concert hall and I won't change those to the more expensive ones in that room either, because the hall is so small it doesn't matter.

 

[PeterA]

No not at all. I just posted a whole number of tickets yesterday where I had bought my preferred seats at the max price and I won't be shifting those. I even said so in another post.

I will later post extremely cheap seats bought at a smaller chamber concert hall and I won't change those to the more expensive ones in that room either, because the hall is so small it doesn't matter.

OK, Kedar. I am stating my general position on this topic while you are now introducing specific cases which seem at odds with the other examples you mentioned and that I quoted. It's all fine. I think I know your answer to Ron's poll question and I think it differs from mine. Perhaps we can agree on that much.

BTW, since Ron removed the revelation of member names and how they voted, the voting results seem to be changing a bit, with many more people voting "NO". I find that to be quite interesting.