Ethics of Switching Seats at a Classical Concert

[KeithR]

I think the bigger issue is people who buy cheap seats regularly just to try and take a front section, assigned seat. this is what I find in handicap sections as they presume it won't be full.

 

[bonzo75]

I think the bigger issue is people who buy cheap seats regularly just to try and take a front section, assigned seat. this is what I find in handicap sections as they presume they won't be full.

Don't think anyone does that. That said the UK tickets are much cheaper than the US as classical is subsidized. Which is why we get to go to more concerts and like horns. US ticket prices are gate keepers

 

[NorthStar]

Exactly. We don't get the seats because they at sold out. So when we go there of the seats are empty we sit on a sold out seat. It's a win win. Peter is leaving society's money on the table

What I like best about Peter's line of thought is that one more person can assist to the concert.
Two, the extra (double dip) revenues can go directly to the musicians, divided equally among them.
Three, the concert hall manager gets nothing, he has already took his cut from the first seat sale.

There are many ways to look @ it, on how to distribute the excess proceeds benificially to all.

But in reality this don't happen. There's a vacating better seat for someone with a lesser seat nearby to grab.

* I would do it on my own, and I would make the effort to tell someone else sitting @ the very back of the classical concert hall that my own seat is now available to her/him.

Now that's Pareto Optimality!

 

[NorthStar]

I think the bigger issue is people who buy cheap seats regularly just to try and take a front section, assigned seat. this is what I find in handicap sections as they presume it won't be full.

Don't think anyone does that. That said the UK tickets are much cheaper than the US as classical is subsidized. Which is why we get to go to more concerts and like horns. US ticket prices are gate keepers

I agree; I don't think classical music lovers have that thought in mind when buying their tickets.
But I am not an expert in this section.

Ticket scalpers? For classical music performances.

 

[Steve williams]

I think the bigger issue is people who buy cheap seats regularly just to try and take a front section, assigned seat. this is what I find in handicap sections as they presume it won't be full.

Keith I understand your dilemma but the symphonies I’ve attended you have to show your ticket to gain admission to that section of the concert hall

Whenever I grab an empty seat it’s usually within the section I’m sitting for the very reason I stated above

 

[Steve williams]

Ticket scalpers? For classical music performances.

Of course. Wherever tickets are sold there are always resellers

 

[PeterA]

But Peter if the seat was already sold are you saying that the venue would sell it a second time if the original owner phoned ahead and says he can’t attend?

Classic case of double dipping if that’s what you are implying

Yes, that happens at the BSO. The season ticket holder can attend one day, so he notifies the box office and gets a tax deduction for the retail price of the ticket. The seats are empty, and the box office makes the seat available by selling it again. All parties benefit and there are no losers. Above all, this helps the BSO because it gives them extra revenue.

Why give the seat away when there are willing customers who want to pay for the good seats? These orchestras barely survive. I was told that 50% of revenue is from ticket sales, and the rest is from donors. I think they also have an endowment.

Steve, tell me what you think is wrong with that scenario?

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, that happens at the BSO. The season ticket holder can attend one day, so he notifies the box office and gets a tax deduction for the retail price of the ticket. The seats are empty, and the box office makes the seat available by selling it again. All parties benefit and there are no losers. Above all, this helps the BSO because it gives them extra revenue.

Why give the seat away when there are willing customers who want to pay for the good seats? These orchestras barely survive. I was told that 50% of revenue is from ticket sales, and the rest is from donors. I think they also have an endowment.

Steve, tell me what you think is wrong with that scenario?

Sometimes we get sold back tickets. Often not. I also lose money forgetting to sell off, so sometimes there is someone sitting in my seat

 

[PeterA]

Exactly. We don't get the seats because they at sold out. So when we go there of the seats are empty we sit on a sold out seat. It's a win win. Peter is leaving society's money on the table

Kedar, please explain to me how this leaves society's money on the table? What do you even mean by that? Individuals have money and governments have money that they get by taxing people. What is "society's money?"

Don't you want to help out the symphony? These are voluntary transactions between all parties. The box office could not resell the seat if the patron did not return it. The patron voluntarily gives his ticket back for resale. A willing customer then buys it if he wants to. The only person this hurts is the guy like you who now can't move into a better seat than he paid for because it has now been sold to someone and is no longer empty. To be honest, there is an argument to be made that you should go to the box office and pay them for the difference between the cheap seat you bought, and the more expensive seat you moved to. You said you were willing to pay more for better seats, but they aren't always available.

Ron's original question was "Is it OK to move into an empty seat?" Yes, I think it is OK because in most places it seems to not be illegal and most people do not complain. However, it is not something I would generally do myself. As I say, it is a cultural thing. Mores are changing and people increasingly simply do what they feel comfortable doing. People clearly have different views about this.

Interesting OP, Ron.

 

[Folsom]

this often happens with handicap seats - i've kicked many a person out of them.

Do they get up and move immediately and apologize, or do they give you gruff?

Are you bothered if they apologize and get out of they way immediately?

 

[PeterA]

Do people move up into empty seats in first class or business class if they are available? What about just moving to a better seat in coach class? Do they ask permission beforehand or simply do as they please? Is there a difference between this and a classical concert? I generally ask a waiter or waitress in a restaurant permission if I want to change seats, but I've seen other people just move without telling anyone.

 

[bonzo75]

Do people move up into empty seats in first class or business class if they are available? What about just moving to a better seat in coach class? Do they ask permission beforehand or simply do as they please? Is there a difference between this and a classical concert? I generally ask a waiter or waitress in a restaurant permission if I want to change seats, but I've seen other people just move without telling anyone.

Yes. There is a difference. Your analogy is incorrect. We treat all classical concert hall as economy class (or all of it as first class). So you are in the same class. The analogy is more similar to you getting into a crowded train for a 5 hour ride, and having to stand. If a seat vacates, you will sit down as space becomes available

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar, please explain to me how this leaves society's money on the table? What do you even mean by that? Individuals have money and governments have money that they get by taxing people. What is "society's money?"

Don't you want to help out the symphony? These are voluntary transactions between all parties. .

If you want to help out the symphony just donate money. That is a different question. It has nothing to do with switching seats.

 

[cjfrbw]

I would say that the 'good seat' is an evanescent resource. The concert is being held to maximize the inspiration and enjoyment of the audience. Obviously, in 'buying' tickets, issues of economics, status, logistics and class prevail.

Once in the concert venue, however, those issues of 'economics, status and class' become moot, and the maximization of the evanescent resource predominates. The concert venue becomes a kind of commons in which the participants can seek to optimize their position, as long as it does not reduce the experience of others, take away property rights of those who have already paid, or generate a nuisance.

Somebody utilizing a better but unused seat are simply doing what the concert was designed for in the first place, bringing as much enjoyment to as many in the audience as possible in the best possible circumstances.

 

[NorthStar]

Yes, that happens at the BSO. The season ticket holder can attend one day, so he notifies the box office and gets a tax deduction for the retail price of the ticket. The seats are empty, and the box office makes the seat available by selling it again. All parties benefit and there are no losers. Above all, this helps the BSO because it gives them extra revenue.

Why give the seat away when there are willing customers who want to pay for the good seats? These orchestras barely survive. I was told that 50% of revenue is from ticket sales, and the rest is from donors. I think they also have an endowment.

Steve, tell me what you think is wrong with that scenario?

I didn't know that Peter; that's a good thing, very good.

 

[Steve williams]

Yes, that happens at the BSO. The season ticket holder can attend one day, so he notifies the box office and gets a tax deduction for the retail price of the ticket. The seats are empty, and the box office makes the seat available by selling it again. All parties benefit and there are no losers. Above all, this helps the BSO because it gives them extra revenue.

Why give the seat away when there are willing customers who want to pay for the good seats? These orchestras barely survive. I was told that 50% of revenue is from ticket sales, and the rest is from donors. I think they also have an endowment.

Steve, tell me what you think is wrong with that scenario?

Not a thing Peter

after I read they can take a tax deduction for the donation of the ticket. To me that is indeed a win win situation. I don’t think I caught that the first time

 

[microstrip]

IMHO the whole issue on ethics is ridiculous. We can expect people do what is usual in that place and event, according to usual practices. What is the motivation and purpose of carrying such poll with vote publicly visible? Creating a feeling of uneasiness and insinuation between members? Sometimes it seems this forum is forgetting its old basic foundational principle - kill the message, not the messenger. Just MHO, YMMV.

 

[NorthStar]

In music concert halls you have premium seats, just as in an airplane...first class tickets.
It's not first one comes first one served, like in a public metro, or transit bus.

If you go sit in first class of a an empty seat of an airplane the stewwardress is going to tell you politely to return to your seat...unless she falls in love with you and/or you bribe her.

In a classical music concert hall around the world...New York City, Amsterdam, Los Angeles, Montreal, Vienna, Paris, Rome, Chicago, Vancouver, Boston, Milan, Venezuela, Washington, Toronto, Hong Kong, Stockholm, ...etc.; they probably operate all differently in regards to empty seats. ...And the audiences too...cultural mentality of each country.

Try to sit on an empty seat of a first class section of a Boeeing jet plane that is not your seat.
I know that famous concert halls are not like airplanes or trains, they are cultural music emancipation venues. ...'Emancipating' an empty and better seat that is not ours (that we did not pay for) by sitting on it during a classical music performance is risqué (could have consequences depending of the venues).

So it's not all the same everywhere the behavioral character and proper attitude.

* I'm weighting all the pros and cons before submitting my ultimate final vote.
I like thinking more global than local.

This thread is funny (in a good way). It's good to take the time, with anything in life.
When we rush we increase the chances of misstepping, 'misseating' ourselves.
Ask before you want to switch seats; I like that philosophy best. And always offer your seat to a woman first, elderly and hall.

 

[NorthStar]

IMHO the whole issue on ethics is ridiculous. We can expect people do what is usual in that place and event, according to usual practices. What is the motivation and purpose of carrying such poll with vote publicly visible? Creating a feeling of uneasiness and insinuation between members? Sometimes it seems this forum is forgetting its old basic foundational principle - kill the message, not the messenger. Just MHO, YMMV.

Me I think it's part of our heritage. It comes with the territory.

You've said it; "usual practices" from different places, musical events, and people.
Did you vote Francisco?

* Bring back hi-fi mono 45s. These were the best years of my sharing music life.

** Voting is like ******** ... it divides more than it unites.

 

[Ron Resnick]

IMHO the whole issue on ethics is ridiculous. We can expect people do what is usual in that place and event, according to usual practices. What is the motivation and purpose of carrying such poll with vote publicly visible? Creating a feeling of uneasiness and insinuation between members? Sometimes it seems this forum is forgetting its old basic foundational principle - kill the message, not the messenger. Just MHO, YMMV.

My mistake, microstrip. I didn’t realize that “votes publicly visible” means that the voters would be identified by their screen name. I did not intend to activate that functionality. I apologize.

I turned the name display off on this poll.