Hi Gunnar, thanks well been working on it until late last night, i will finish this up tonight.
Looks like my problem comes from either PP Switch or one of his Ethernet cables or both of them.
Keep you guys posted.
Fiber vs. Ethernet sonic differences
- Thread starter pk_LA
- Start date
Looks like my problem comes from either PP Switch or one of his Ethernet cables or both of them.
Keep you guys posted.
Hello @Gunnar
Having some issue with the "quote" functionality, but re:
"...the sound will be ”less good” with optical directly into the streamer compared to a LAN connection. The optic should be installed earlier in the chain." comment, I have tried a few things, sometimes settling on what seems to make sense, even if listening is not a clear winner for what to do.
I think Emile's comment was largely based on the electro-mechanical noise difference between optical signal processing, vs. ethernet, with respect to the Extreme.
I like optical, but it is fair to consider, when ethernet is still in the chain, we are adding multiple conversions if we go back-and-forth between the two technologies. We have the conversions, as well as the power supplies and cables to consider.
I actually left my Extreme with fiber direct for a long time after Emile's comments and other users' feedback. I ran MM and SM fiber, as well as Cat6 and a cryo-ed unshielded ethernet cable at the same time, since cable is relatively cheap, compared to labor and
hassle to pull the lines. So, easy for me to switch/test.
But, eventually, I swapped back to ethernet, and it was fine, so I left it.
Originally, I had my PFBuffalo modded switch close to the Extreme, short cable in, both with fiber and ethernet tests. That was fine, but with boxes and cables, kind of messy. I don't like things messy and congested.
So, I moved all my network gear upstairs (main floor. audio is in basement), and pulled a dedicated line. So, I have an IT closet (sounds grand, but is tiny) with modem, router, switch, and the ~10 meter run to the audio room.
At the moment, I do not have fiber (aside from ISP service) in my chain, but I did set it up with a short fiber "patch" early in the chain, to test that application, which works fine. Even a one-meter patch to create isolation was good.
Here is/was my thinking about optical: it is great to isolate electrically. I live in NE US city with a lot of RF "pollution" nearby. I could not test this radiation, but I can see five or six neighbor wireless radios with my phone, and I have a place that makes radios used by the military close-by and always testing. Giant antenna arrays on the roof.
I mention this because I assumed from this, I was in a radiation soup, and optical would be a better solution; however, when I switched back to ethernet, things still sound great. Remember, there is the caveat that I have the MSB ProISL optical converter into the dac...so still benefitting from optical.
Sorry if I rambled on too much to reply to your simple question. And to add a layer: soon Taiko will have their NIC and switch. I think their guidance will be to have it close to the Extreme. So, I will be back to some more messy boxes.
Having some issue with the "quote" functionality, but re:
"...the sound will be ”less good” with optical directly into the streamer compared to a LAN connection. The optic should be installed earlier in the chain." comment, I have tried a few things, sometimes settling on what seems to make sense, even if listening is not a clear winner for what to do.
I think Emile's comment was largely based on the electro-mechanical noise difference between optical signal processing, vs. ethernet, with respect to the Extreme.
I like optical, but it is fair to consider, when ethernet is still in the chain, we are adding multiple conversions if we go back-and-forth between the two technologies. We have the conversions, as well as the power supplies and cables to consider.
I actually left my Extreme with fiber direct for a long time after Emile's comments and other users' feedback. I ran MM and SM fiber, as well as Cat6 and a cryo-ed unshielded ethernet cable at the same time, since cable is relatively cheap, compared to labor and
hassle to pull the lines. So, easy for me to switch/test.
But, eventually, I swapped back to ethernet, and it was fine, so I left it.
Originally, I had my PFBuffalo modded switch close to the Extreme, short cable in, both with fiber and ethernet tests. That was fine, but with boxes and cables, kind of messy. I don't like things messy and congested.
So, I moved all my network gear upstairs (main floor. audio is in basement), and pulled a dedicated line. So, I have an IT closet (sounds grand, but is tiny) with modem, router, switch, and the ~10 meter run to the audio room.
At the moment, I do not have fiber (aside from ISP service) in my chain, but I did set it up with a short fiber "patch" early in the chain, to test that application, which works fine. Even a one-meter patch to create isolation was good.
Here is/was my thinking about optical: it is great to isolate electrically. I live in NE US city with a lot of RF "pollution" nearby. I could not test this radiation, but I can see five or six neighbor wireless radios with my phone, and I have a place that makes radios used by the military close-by and always testing. Giant antenna arrays on the roof.
I mention this because I assumed from this, I was in a radiation soup, and optical would be a better solution; however, when I switched back to ethernet, things still sound great. Remember, there is the caveat that I have the MSB ProISL optical converter into the dac...so still benefitting from optical.
Sorry if I rambled on too much to reply to your simple question. And to add a layer: soon Taiko will have their NIC and switch. I think their guidance will be to have it close to the Extreme. So, I will be back to some more messy boxes.
Did a test today with single-mode instead of multimode. First impression: More clear sound.
But will let my wife do a test
She is quit good at that
Q: Does anybody know a good "passive" FMC - not a switched voltage regulator in it, but a passive one?
But will let my wife do a test
She is quit good at that Q: Does anybody know a good "passive" FMC - not a switched voltage regulator in it, but a passive one?
Well, you fellas might be interested in the fact that our latest streamer, the Neo Stream has an optical ethernet on board Saves an additional switch and PSU.
Saves an additional switch and PSU.
I had a Fiber Bridge (that's the term I called ethernet>fiber>ethernet when I first started using it in 2005 for audio for VRS Audio systems) based on the cheapest media boxes and fiber I could find about 5 years ago. I have a cheap LPS on the output side. I've read up on the latest formats/results etc and decided to upgrade based on these new specs. Here is the list of what I bought. Today I plugged it all into the current power supplies I already setup (these boxes all use the same spec power supply) and was very happy to find it all works out of the box. I do hear a difference already, clearer through the mid-band, but also rough around the edges. So I think some break in will be required.
* 2x: 10 Gtek 1.25G Desktop Fiber Switch/Media Converter 4-Port 2x SFP and 2x RJ-45 Ports
* 2X: Finisar FTLX1471D3BCL Finisar 10Gb/s LR 10km 1310nm Single Mode SFP+ Optical Transceiver
1x: OB Commscope FEWLCLC42-JXM001 TeraSPEED 1.6mm Duplex Fiber Patch Cord 1M
All told a $120 investment. With two ethernet ports on each box, I can also add my Nvidia Shield media streamer to the cleaner output my Lumin U2 Mini (with LPS) enjoys. The Shield has a good LPS on it so it doesn't send much noise back into the line. Will report back on longer term use. I may try more 'audiophile' versions of stuff once I get the balance of this setup.
* 2x: 10 Gtek 1.25G Desktop Fiber Switch/Media Converter 4-Port 2x SFP and 2x RJ-45 Ports
* 2X: Finisar FTLX1471D3BCL Finisar 10Gb/s LR 10km 1310nm Single Mode SFP+ Optical Transceiver
1x: OB Commscope FEWLCLC42-JXM001 TeraSPEED 1.6mm Duplex Fiber Patch Cord 1M
All told a $120 investment. With two ethernet ports on each box, I can also add my Nvidia Shield media streamer to the cleaner output my Lumin U2 Mini (with LPS) enjoys. The Shield has a good LPS on it so it doesn't send much noise back into the line. Will report back on longer term use. I may try more 'audiophile' versions of stuff once I get the balance of this setup.
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After about a day it really opened up. A whole new level of clarity and transparency across all frequencies. Air and the acoustic envelope around instruments and vocals really enhanced. Images hang in space so much more vividly. Highs more extended and delicate. It is a surprising amount of difference for where it is in the playback chain.
I've compered both extensively in my system.
While fiber did offer advantages, I felt I lost a bit of the" organic-ness" and ebb and flow of music that I had with the right ethernet cables.
After a month of testing 15 different switches, a multitude of cables, 2 different fiber converters, and different locations for the switches, I settled on 3 mass-market switches by the wall plugged into the wall and a higher end PPA QUAD switch by the streamer with a GigaFOIL.
However I tried literally DOZENS of combinations to find out which combo of switches and cables and locations worked the best on my system.
While fiber did offer advantages, I felt I lost a bit of the" organic-ness" and ebb and flow of music that I had with the right ethernet cables.
After a month of testing 15 different switches, a multitude of cables, 2 different fiber converters, and different locations for the switches, I settled on 3 mass-market switches by the wall plugged into the wall and a higher end PPA QUAD switch by the streamer with a GigaFOIL.
However I tried literally DOZENS of combinations to find out which combo of switches and cables and locations worked the best on my system.
Has anyone tried and compared these:
https://www.gbic-shop.de/FTLX1475D3...rCSpboU2CWLwb_iNGvxGA5XCQ1QFGzHGGGfJ2xrpHJZkY with the original Finisar 1475 ?
In their description they say that they are maybe even better than the original ones.
https://www.gbic-shop.de/FTLX1475D3...rCSpboU2CWLwb_iNGvxGA5XCQ1QFGzHGGGfJ2xrpHJZkY with the original Finisar 1475 ?
In their description they say that they are maybe even better than the original ones.
Yes I have. They do not sound good. Please see my review on this page of a number of SPF’s including the BlueOptics.
Using a Fibre Optic Link for Digital Audio | The Audio Standard
1. Introduction There are strong arguments for using a fibre optic link in your system for transmitting digital data for audio. In a classic setup, you will typically use ethernet cable
theaudiostandard.net
I have added a Topping P50 linear power supply to the output side of the bridge (I realized I had it with a Topping dac in my garage). And I moved my cheap LPS to the input side. This also made a nice difference of a calmer more laid back feel, and increased liquidity and depth. My system is sounding really lifelike and 'natural' these days. I'm listening to a 24-192 hi rez version of Billie Holliday's Music for Torching, and it feels like she is right in the room. Studio reverb, spotlighted solos, very intimate with reach and out touch feels. Will be applying EMI and Grounding devices to the media converters next to see how that does.
My home cable router connects to a Netgear Nighthawk 8 port switch. I use a high quality Cat 8 cable that I've done listening comparisons to and found its superior to some other less expensive audiophile ethernet cables. I have all my upstairs devices connected to this switch. My fiber bridged media converter boxes connect to this. I tried putting a Shakti Air Stone on top of this switch. And darned if I didn't hear a difference. Not as much as the other stuff, but it is there. There is more depth to soundstage and I am hearing more fleshy fingering on stringed instruments. This tells me that it can make a difference, but it is becoming less of an influence. I may look to an LPS for that switch or perhaps an LHY SW-8 someday.
BTW, I highly recommend this new version of the Shakti Air Stone, if not just to discover what parts of your chain might need improvements etc. Since you can plunk it down anywhere, it give a good read on the state of that component or cables etc. They are very inexpensive next to other types of these sort of things.
BTW, I highly recommend this new version of the Shakti Air Stone, if not just to discover what parts of your chain might need improvements etc. Since you can plunk it down anywhere, it give a good read on the state of that component or cables etc. They are very inexpensive next to other types of these sort of things.
I recently have been through a very significant Ethernet stage upgrade, so thought I'd add it to this discussion.
I previously had an SOtM ISOCAT7 before my Innuos Zenith 3. However, a lot of the time it sounded far too digital. The killer upgrade was sourcing a 2nd hand EtherRegen and swapping it for the ISOCAT7. It was chalk and cheese. I now had a dark, warm, detailed, musical, un-digital sound. Lovely.
I was going to leave it at that, but then noticed that better ethernet cables feeding the EtherRegen improved the SQ.
I then tried feeding the ER with an ADOT FMC into the ER's SFP, and again further improvements: quite significant in fact. I did also try the ADOT after the ER, but didn't like it. It was definitely the case for me that the quality of the ER's input really does matter.
The next step was to try sourcing some 2nd hand Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL => even better. I also have some FTLF1324P2BTL on their way, so will compare to the 1318s. However, I'll draw the line there. Don't want to spend £200 on some full price 1475s.
I then added a new BG7TBL 10MHz clock with LRM-400-75 coax cable => slight improvement - perhaps a little more liquid and bass definition. I think it deserves a better PSU before I can adequately judge it.
In all, I'm fairly gobsmacked how much the ethernet stage matters. I also have an Innuos PhoenixUSB, so used to intuitively feel that if the pre-DAC stream is re-clocked then how can the Ethernet stage matter that much? I still don't know the answer, but I'm thoroughly sure it matters a hell of a lot.
Future possible upgrades include Phoenix glass (thanks to this thread); and a really decent LPS for the ER - probably Plixir BDC Elite with their high-end DC cable.
I previously had an SOtM ISOCAT7 before my Innuos Zenith 3. However, a lot of the time it sounded far too digital. The killer upgrade was sourcing a 2nd hand EtherRegen and swapping it for the ISOCAT7. It was chalk and cheese. I now had a dark, warm, detailed, musical, un-digital sound. Lovely.
I was going to leave it at that, but then noticed that better ethernet cables feeding the EtherRegen improved the SQ.
I then tried feeding the ER with an ADOT FMC into the ER's SFP, and again further improvements: quite significant in fact. I did also try the ADOT after the ER, but didn't like it. It was definitely the case for me that the quality of the ER's input really does matter.
The next step was to try sourcing some 2nd hand Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL => even better. I also have some FTLF1324P2BTL on their way, so will compare to the 1318s. However, I'll draw the line there. Don't want to spend £200 on some full price 1475s.
I then added a new BG7TBL 10MHz clock with LRM-400-75 coax cable => slight improvement - perhaps a little more liquid and bass definition. I think it deserves a better PSU before I can adequately judge it.
In all, I'm fairly gobsmacked how much the ethernet stage matters. I also have an Innuos PhoenixUSB, so used to intuitively feel that if the pre-DAC stream is re-clocked then how can the Ethernet stage matter that much? I still don't know the answer, but I'm thoroughly sure it matters a hell of a lot.
Future possible upgrades include Phoenix glass (thanks to this thread); and a really decent LPS for the ER - probably Plixir BDC Elite with their high-end DC cable.
Phoenix Glass: APC or UPC?
Can I ask those who have taken the Phoenix Glass route whether they chose the APC or UPC terminations? It's all completely new to me and only became apparent when I noticed blue or green connectors
You can see both in this search result:
uk.rs-online.com
What I've found indicates that APC (green connector) is better. However, all the examples linked to on this thread seem to be UPC (blue)
Can I ask those who have taken the Phoenix Glass route whether they chose the APC or UPC terminations? It's all completely new to me and only became apparent when I noticed blue or green connectors
You can see both in this search result:
Fibre Optic Cable | Fibre Optic | RS
Browse our latest Fibre Optic Cable offer. Place your order today for our Fibre Optic Cable. Fast Delivery.
What I've found indicates that APC (green connector) is better. However, all the examples linked to on this thread seem to be UPC (blue)
I have the blue. The UPC. Why? I did not know that it existed both one green and one blue. I just focused on buying a Phonix glass….. and got the blue….Phoenix Glass: APC or UPC?
Can I ask those who have taken the Phoenix Glass route whether they chose the APC or UPC terminations? It's all completely new to me and only became apparent when I noticed blue or green connectors
You can see both in this search result:
Fibre Optic Cable | Fibre Optic | RS
Browse our latest Fibre Optic Cable offer. Place your order today for our Fibre Optic Cable. Fast Delivery.
What I've found indicates that APC (green connector) is better. However, all the examples linked to on this thread seem to be UPC (blue)
Was considering deleting my original question, but thought I'd leave it in in case others ask the same.
I can't find anything concrete regarding Finisar SFPs and these standards. However, APC is discouraged when connecting to SFPs, unless the specs state the SFP can accommodate APC (green).
UPC, though inferior, is preferred for switch connections, while APC is for high-end networking "stuff".
The blue would appear to be the one to go for.
Emile of Taiko and the Extreme Server is constantly doing network testing of all things Ethernet related as he is interfacing with his customers constantly. i'm no longer staying current as i've changed hardware but my 2 cents is to observe the Taiko Extreme thread and see what 'network stuff' is shaking there as they are pushing the envelope constantly. and it's a hot-bed of feedback on this subject.
I use this:
www.startech.com
Please note it is single mode and OS1
Torben
1m Single-Mode Fiber Patch Cable LC - LC - Fiber Optic Cables & Adapters | Cables | StarTech.com Germany
1m Fiber Optic Cable - Single-Mode Duplex 9/125 - LSZH - LC/LC | Germany
www.startech.com
Please note it is single mode and OS1
Torben
I am at such a great place with my streaming,
10G Media Converter, 10 Gigabit Fiber to 10G Copper UTP Ethernet Media Converter, Mini Unmanaged 1x 100M/1G/2.5G/5G/10GBase-T RJ45 to 1x 10GBase-X SFP+ Slot 10Gigabit Ethernet Media Converter: From QSFTPEK with Finisar FTLX147D3BCL 10G SFP+ Transceivers, x 2 NETGEAR 5-Port Gigabit Ethernet Plus Switch All Supra cabling, Innuos Zenith with Phoenix USB Clock. LessLoss Echo's End Ref DAC with LessLoss Firewire 640X.
Fiber is fantastic in my system
I’d appreciate any comments on sound quality from users of Lumin products (specifically X1, P1 and U2) who employ a LAN optical connection (fibre, spelled the British way). I’ve been using multimode fibre from Sonore, as I once owned the company’s original opticalModule (oM) that came configured this way. When I originally set up the Lumin X1’s fibre connection, I used the oM, but have since moved to fibre implementation via an etherRegen switch. The sound quality, by the way, is terrific.
Recently, though, I’ve been intrigued by some online posters who’ve heard a tangible difference between multimode and single-mode fibre, with the latter purportedly having an uptick in SQ. As you probably know, Lumin is agnostic on the topic, saying that both multimode and single-mode will work. Lumin’s website suggests the use of Corning’s ClearCurve single-mode duplex fibre; there is no multimode fibre recommended, so perhaps that is a small clue. The recommended transceivers are StarTech and 10Gtek. Again, as the transceivers need to match the single-mode fibre, perhaps this is another small clue that single-mode might be preferred. I can’t recall the exact fibre and transceivers with the original oM, other than the fibre was specified as Sonore-branded systemOptique Certified Fibre-Optic Cable.
Peter Lie, Lumin’s firmware lead and a frequent, valuable contributor to this site, has shared that one dealer who tested the LAN optical connection with the X1 preferred single-mode. Peter has encouraged people seeking the best SQ to test one vs. the other. To that end, I’ve ordered Corning ClearCurve fibre and some matching Finisar transceivers (FTLF1318P3BTL) that have been popular among some online posters. (As a side note, Sonore now recommends Finisar transceivers as an upgrade to their second-edition oM, perhaps another small clue!) As the purchases were quite reasonable, I don’t mind letting them sit on the sideline while I ponder this dilemma, with the potential help of Lumin users!
Recently, though, I’ve been intrigued by some online posters who’ve heard a tangible difference between multimode and single-mode fibre, with the latter purportedly having an uptick in SQ. As you probably know, Lumin is agnostic on the topic, saying that both multimode and single-mode will work. Lumin’s website suggests the use of Corning’s ClearCurve single-mode duplex fibre; there is no multimode fibre recommended, so perhaps that is a small clue. The recommended transceivers are StarTech and 10Gtek. Again, as the transceivers need to match the single-mode fibre, perhaps this is another small clue that single-mode might be preferred. I can’t recall the exact fibre and transceivers with the original oM, other than the fibre was specified as Sonore-branded systemOptique Certified Fibre-Optic Cable.
Peter Lie, Lumin’s firmware lead and a frequent, valuable contributor to this site, has shared that one dealer who tested the LAN optical connection with the X1 preferred single-mode. Peter has encouraged people seeking the best SQ to test one vs. the other. To that end, I’ve ordered Corning ClearCurve fibre and some matching Finisar transceivers (FTLF1318P3BTL) that have been popular among some online posters. (As a side note, Sonore now recommends Finisar transceivers as an upgrade to their second-edition oM, perhaps another small clue!) As the purchases were quite reasonable, I don’t mind letting them sit on the sideline while I ponder this dilemma, with the potential help of Lumin users!
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