For what it's Worth-Tesla

[andromedaaudio]

Tesla is getting competition

428 PS four wheel drive for just over 40 .000 euros , leaves a lot of Audi RS , MB AMG s in the dust

No vroom , but power

The new Volvo EX30 Twin Motor Performance delivers 428PS to all four wheels and rockets the EX30 to 62mph in a blistering 3.6 seconds, though range is a little down on the Single Motor Extended Range version at 286 miles.

 

[Joe Whip]

Competition is good.

 

[Gregadd]

Link

 

[Steve williams]

I heard on the news today that every EV Ford sells it loses $31K

 

[Gregadd]

I heard on the news today that every EV Ford sells it loses $31K

Bad for stockholders Good for customers. hat's the beauty of being one of the big boys.

 

[Joe Whip]

Sure, don’t worry about losing money on each sale, we will make it up in volume. The Lightning loses even more.

 

[DaveC]

I heard on the news today that every EV Ford sells it loses $31K

The owner of Fiat said the same about their Mini EV. I'm not sure the amount is accurate but the theme is consistent, EVs are not the profit makers, and this is why Tesla started with a luxury car or roadster (before Elon was involved), luxury and sports cars have more markup. This is also part of the reason there are tax incentives, manufacturers can charge more if the customer is getting a tax break.

This should give an idea about the investment it takes to build EVs vs ICE vehicles, the cost is directly related to the energy required to manufacture the goods, EVs take far more resources to build vs ICE. So use, type of vehicle, and the method of charging are really the determining factors on if an EV will produce more or less carbon emissions over it's lifespan and why blanket assertions of which is better are always incorrect. In the best case scenarios you'll reach a carbon break-even point far before the end of the EV's effective life. In the worst case, i.e. charging using coal power plants, an EV with huge weight and/or long range being driven in inefficient scenarios, I do believe it's possible it'll never reach that point, especially if you're comparing a big Tesla with a small ICE vehicle. Then the environmental and human impacts are more subjective. Cobalt is generally obtained using slave labor and rare earth mining has a large footprint. Of course bauxite and oil extraction aren't benign either.

 

[Joe Whip]

Well, as you know DaveC, we view this issue very differently. We just will never agree on it. There is one point people never address. Besides the carbon emissions is the fine particulate matter produced by every ICE vehicle that we breathe in every minute of our lives. There are more benefits to getting rid of gas vehicles than just mitigating climate change, like breathing healthier air.

 

[Gregadd]

The Mustang and Lightning are Fords' Loss leader.

 

[bryans]

The Mustang and Lightning are Fords' Loss leader.

Actually I believe these were Ford's loss leaders LOL

10 Car Models That Ford No Longer Makes

Car models come and go, and Ford is no exception to this rule. Though, these cars are sentimental to some, they are no longer being manufactured.

www.hotcars.com

 

[DaveC]

Well, as you know DaveC, we view this issue very differently. We just will never agree on it. There is one point people never address. Besides the carbon emissions is the fine particulate matter produced by every ICE vehicle that we breathe in every minute of our lives. There are more benefits to getting rid of gas vehicles than just mitigating climate change, like breathing healthier air.

It's really just some of the underlying assumptions that make for disagreements, and when someone tries to quantify all the assumptions required to calculate the truth of the matter, it's subject to bias. I think we agree on a lot, I bought an ebike to avoid driving, I am sure EVs are the future.

For an example of how break-even points are massively different, compare a Leaf to the Hummer EV. You can probably make 3 Leafs (Leaves?) with the resources it takes to make one Hummer. Now compare that Leaf to a Ford Fiesta, you can make about 3 Fiestas with the same resources it takes to make a Leaf. The Hummer is unlikely to reach break-even vs a Fiesta under any circumstances. OTOH, a Leaf is going to reach break-even vs driving around a Ford F150 very quickly.

Particulates are only an issue with older diesel tech or malfunctioning gas engines, but diesel particulates are a massive issue that Europe especially has misjudged. It turns out there was a good reason the US has such strict regs on diesel cars. The truth is, a modern gas engine's emissions are often cleaner than ambient air in many urban environments. In some places they are gas-powered air cleaners that also transport people. I'm joking, but just to illustrate perspective. Urban pollution from cars can be an issue with some older cars and many diesels though.

Also, if you have grid connected solar, I think it's a nice contribution to the community but you could also do that and not have an EV. So those who have solar and say they charge with their solar panels, well, that's not so clear that's what's really happening. If they didn't charge their EVs the power companies would burn less fossil fuels. Of course by putting up solar you're offsetting that, but they don't have to be tied together. So if you buy an inefficient EV like the Hummer, you're not really fully compensating for your energy use by getting solar, the truck still uses a ton of energy, and that is costly.

It's a complex subject I tend to believe that most of the time in life there's no free lunch, and that carries over to the subject of EVs. There's no getting around the fact it takes a lot of energy to move cars around. Maybe Fusion will become a reality, but until then we're mired in the reality that energy in any form isn't free.

 

[Joe Whip]

Driving in Philly and New York, I just can’t agree. Try driving behind a Septa bus for a few blocks or trucks. Sorry, if I can smell the exhaust in my car with a hepa filter, the air is far from clean.

 

[Gregadd]

Actually I believe these were Ford's loss leaders LOL

https://www.hotcars.com/car-models-for-no-longer-makes/

Those are classic. The Ford Pinto has a sad legacy.

 

[Lagonda]

I heard on the news today that every EV Ford sells it loses $31K

And Chinese companies like Volvo are subsidized in all kind of ways !

 

[Gregadd]

They don't givevany numbers. Nor they discuss the impact of tax incives. Of course, incentives apply to all EV.

MSN

 

[bryans]

And Chinese companies like Volvo are subsidized in all kind of ways !

I thought Volvo was Sweden

 

[Gregadd]

I thought Volvo was Sweden

I thought it was left- handed comment on where the cars were actually made. I do not know.

 

[Joe Whip]

Volvo is owned now by a Chinese company, Geely I believe.

 

[Gregadd]

Nothing wrong with a China based company owning Volvo. Viiva globalism!

 

[Lagonda]

I thought Volvo was Sweden

Was ! The Chinese stuck their foot in there long time ago !