Gian's system - Vyger-Opus vs Techdas AF3, SAT+Lyra Lambda

[Tango]

Hi Tang,

If this utopian concept is true, why have all the TTs, arms and cartridges? They all have different flavours.
Everything has its sound from the materials used in your horns to the “elephant” being the room itself.

Good morning Bill,

I don't think it is utopian Bill. Saying it just sounds like trying to be cool and people get annoy hearing it. And it bother most to people who likes to add this and that to steer their sound after they have sunk a big chunk of cash into the components that are too far from the raw meat. I did that before wasting loads of money to learn. But as I said it depends on the person's approach to how he wants to hear his system. I am not convincing anyone. I am Switzerland on how people want to construct their system. I also don't defend any gear.

You are asking why have all the TTs, arms, cart? This is not a general question right? We do need those to make a sound. I have bought multiple tts, arms, carts. Those are my learning process. When I am curious of something I buy to find out and hear in my system. I have sold the Af1P, 2 SATs, 1 Axiom, gave out a few carts to friends, broke the Coral Stone. The Kronos Pro has been in its flight case since 2018. I will keep the EMT 927 because it is like a Mercedes Gullwing to me. It is a great raw meat tt but it doesn't have the level of resolution I require. And I cannot afford another AS2000 for a back up tt in case the main tt cannot play for any reason. I only listen to AS2000 with Vdh now. All four arms I have are 3012R. I have 3 Master Signature. One of them is mono for its function. I don't get sway by the newer model. The Opus1 is on one of my arm. I use it just to cross check the sound and setting of my three Vdhs. You do a lot of vinyl you know a second cart can be a useful tool. So even though I have multi vinyl fronts, once I have learned I stop using most of them and only use what I think is closer to raw meat to me.

 

[microstrip]

(...) So even though I have multi vinyl fronts, once I have learned I stop using most of them and only use what I think is closer to raw meat to me.

Dear Tang,

People who prefer and listen mostly to digital can make analogies with raw blood, much more depurate than meat ... Dracula 1999 - good music BTW, now also available in LP format.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Tang,

If this utopian concept is true, why have all the TTs, arms and cartridges? They all have different flavours.
Everything has its sound from the materials used in your horns to the “elephant” being the room itself.

Good morning Bill,

I don't think it is utopian Bill. Saying it just sounds like trying to be cool and people get annoy hearing it. And it bother most to people who likes to add this and that to steer their sound after they have sunk a big chunk of cash into the components that are too far from the raw meat. I did that before wasting loads of money to learn. But as I said it depends on the person's approach to how he wants to hear his system. I am not convincing anyone. I am Switzerland on how people want to construct their system. I also don't defend any gear.

You are asking why have all the TTs, arms, cart? This is not a general question right? We do need those to make a sound. I have bought multiple tts, arms, carts. Those are my learning process. When I am curious of something I buy to find out and hear in my system. I have sold the Af1P, 2 SATs, 1 Axiom, gave out a few carts to friends, broke the Coral Stone. The Kronos Pro has been in its flight case since 2018. I will keep the EMT 927 because it is like a Mercedes Gullwing to me. It is a great raw meat tt but it doesn't have the level of resolution I require. And I cannot afford another AS2000 for a back up tt in case the main tt cannot play for any reason. I only listen to AS2000 with Vdh now. All four arms I have are 3012R. I have 3 Master Signature. One of them is mono for its function. I don't get sway by the newer model. The Opus1 is on one of my arm. I use it just to cross check the sound and setting of my three Vdhs. You do a lot of vinyl you know a second cart can be a useful tool. So even though I have multi vinyl fronts, once I have learned I stop using most of them and only use what I think is closer to raw meat to me.

i can relate to you only choosing to listen to the AS-2000/Vdh/3012R/EMT phono.

you walked a different pathway than i did and came to your own conclusions of where truth is.

some ask why i have three Etsuro Gold + two Infinity Mono? why not others? it's my "raw meat"......musical centering truth (not all would agree obviously). but i like a broad cross section of music and find that different arms and turntables play better and bring out the best of those different music choices. it's how it played out for me.

i'm really not curious any more. i'm not exploring to find stuff out. i'm just listening. maybe over time i will find out things about myself that might change my course. no worries if that happens. i think my system does allow for any sort of music to have it's way to be optimal.....according to my personal tastes.

what is system honesty? where the music is neutrally presented and fully allowed to be what it can be? we likely have a hundred answers to that. some think they know best. and they are right. others think they know best. they are right too. i've put much effort into achieving that goal but would never expect nor seek for broad agreement that i'm there. but i am satisfied with it.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Good morning Bill,

I don't think it is utopian Bill. Saying it just sounds like trying to be cool and people get annoy hearing it. And it bother most to people who likes to add this and that to steer their sound after they have sunk a big chunk of cash into the components that are too far from the raw meat. I did that before wasting loads of money to learn. But as I said it depends on the person's approach to how he wants to hear his system. I am not convincing anyone. I am Switzerland on how people want to construct their system. I also don't defend any gear.

You are asking why have all the TTs, arms, cart? This is not a general question right? We do need those to make a sound. I have bought multiple tts, arms, carts. Those are my learning process. When I am curious of something I buy to find out and hear in my system. I have sold the Af1P, 2 SATs, 1 Axiom, gave out a few carts to friends, broke the Coral Stone. The Kronos Pro has been in its flight case since 2018. I will keep the EMT 927 because it is like a Mercedes Gullwing to me. It is a great raw meat tt but it doesn't have the level of resolution I require. And I cannot afford another AS2000 for a back up tt in case the main tt cannot play for any reason. I only listen to AS2000 with Vdh now. All four arms I have are 3012R. I have 3 Master Signature. One of them is mono for its function. I don't get sway by the newer model. The Opus1 is on one of my arm. I use it just to cross check the sound and setting of my three Vdhs. You do a lot of vinyl you know a second cart can be a useful tool. So even though I have multi vinyl fronts, once I have learned I stop using most of them and only use what I think is closer to raw meat to me.

Morning Tang,

In terms of your first point. All TTs have their sonic signature and produce a different presentation as you well know. Carts are the same. So your inferred claim is that your AS and MS combo is the most neutral of everything you have heard. Personally I think the MS is anything but neutral - just looking at the data of its frequency response clearly tells you that - an obvious rising tail. This is fine and might be your definition of neutrality. But if another audiophile picks say another cart like a Red Sparrow (for example), then which one is neutral? Unfortunately there is no answer to this question because of all the other variables that will modulate how the cart performs (arm, phono, etc). Then the other elephant is that different LPs have their own associated mastering gear / preferences that are manipulated based on the choice of equipment in that studio or to a house sound.

So it is utopian and false to state ones system is neutral. Just running a frequency response sweep through your system should tell you how not neutral it is - have you done a sweep before? I promise your bass response will be up and down like a mountain range.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

i can relate to you only choosing to listen to the AS-2000/Vdh/3012R/EMT phono.

you walked a different pathway than i did and came to your own conclusions of where truth is.

some ask why i have three Etsuro Gold + two Infinity Mono? why not others? it's my "raw meat"......musical centering truth (not all would agree obviously). but i like a broad cross section of music and find that different arms and turntables play better and bring out the best of those different music choices. it's how it played out for me.

i'm really not curious any more. i'm not exploring to find stuff out. i'm just listening. maybe over time i will find out things about myself that might change my course. no worries if that happens. i think my system does allow for any sort of music to have it's way to be optimal.....according to my personal tastes.

what is system honesty? where the music is neutrally presented and fully allowed to be what it can be? we likely have a hundred answers to that. some think they know best. and they are right. others think they know best. they are right too. i've put much effort into achieving that goal but would never expect nor seek for broad agreement that i'm there. but i am satisfied with it.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for weighing in. Yes your last paragraph summarises it very well imho.

Enjoy.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang, iirc you had tried telefunken tubes in your EMT phono thinking they would be clean and transparent and neutral (which they were) but you went back to preferring the stock (mullard?:

You have EMT, Ayon, and Lamm valves coloring your system, many would argue you need spectral or Soulution.

Either way ... I view the Dalby as an essential component of an unsuspended TT without vacuum

 

[bonzo75]

Also, please change to passive preamp in your system, The Truth

 

[awsmone]

Hmmm neutral such a dangerous word full of negative pejorative

I feel the system must self actualise the recording with the minimum of editorialization = neutral

the issue with this is the pleasantness of the “actualisation”

the issue is whether reproduction should be a forensic enquiry into what has been recorded

or a form of entertainment where foresinic exactitude may be conformed in the interest of enjoyment

and finally whether the two approaches may find a confluence and synergy of purpose. ?

 

[Tango]

So it is utopian and false to state ones system is neutral. Just running a frequency response sweep through your system should tell you how not neutral it is - have you done a sweep before? I promise your bass response will be up and down like a mountain range.

Wow. My fresh meat comment really get experts pumping. Are you in a "challenging" mode now?

 

[manisandher]

Also, please change to passive preamp in your system, The Truth

Are you refering to Ed Schilling's preamp? I've got one and although it's actually active (but with no gain) it sounds as transparent as any passive I've ever tried.

Mani.

 

[nickif]

Tang, I’d like to know why you only use 3012R arms now? In my experience arm has quite some impact on the sound, do you prefer 3012 to SAT for instance?

 

[Tango]

Tang, iirc you had tried telefunken tubes in your EMT phono thinking they would be clean and transparent and neutral (which they were) but you went back to preferring the stock (mullard?:

You have EMT, Ayon, and Lamm valves coloring your system, many would argue you need spectral or Soulution.

Either way ... I view the Dalby as an essential component of an unsuspended TT without vacuum

Ked. Where did you get that idea about me using Mullard. I have been using Telefunken for both Emt phono and the ML3. I tried the Mazda but they are not in any of my phono.

So all valves are more color than solid stage? If you notice I have not used the word "neutral" or " neutrality" once.

The last part about Dalby that you are generalizing, I really don't know how you could be so sloppy saying it.

 

[Tango]

Tang, I’d like to know why you only use 3012R arms now? In my experience arm has quite some impact on the sound, do you prefer 3012 to SAT for instance?

Yes I prefer the Master Sig on 3012R than on SAT. It lets loose the Master Sig more.

 

[bonzo75]

Are you refering to Ed Schilling's preamp? I've got one and although it's actually active (but with no gain) it sounds as transparent as any passive I've ever tried.

Mani.

Oh is it active? I thought it was passive. Never heard it but it always gets compared to Slagle's AVC, so thought it was passive. Will contact you to do a shootout of that with slagle and Hattor passive

 

[bonzo75]

Ked. Where did you get that idea about me using Mullard. I have been using Telefunken for both Emt phono and the ML3. I tried the Mazda but they are not in any of my phono.

So all valves are more color than solid stage? If you notice I have not used the word "neutral" or " neutrality" once.

The last part about Dalby that you are generalizing, I really don't know how you could be so sloppy saying it.

Confused mullard and Mazda. Which was the stock that you had?

I am not saying valves color more than solid state, but I am saying that is another pointless argument, similar to saying Dalby colors, which is how this discussion started

 

[nickif]

Yes I prefer the Master Sig on 3012R than on SAT. It lets loose the Master Sig more.

So it’s more cartridge dependent?

 

[Tango]

Confused mullard and Mazda. Which was the stock that you had?

I am not saying valves color more than solid state, but I am saying that is another pointless argument, similar to saying Dalby colors, which is how this discussion started

You were talking neutrality and recommend me to try Soulution or Spectral. Don't twist your meaning to saying it is another pointless argument my friend.

Look into my eyes and swallow it Ked. The Dalby comment is the most sloppy comment you said and you know it.

The stock tube of Emt is an eastern europe tube I think. I don't remember.

 

[Tango]

So it’s more cartridge dependent?

I have not enough experience to say that. ddk is a proper person to say. But my Opus1, MSL Platinum, GFS, ZYX Univ Premium, ZYX Univ Optimum sound great in their own way with the 3012R. My Atlas SL sounded best on SAT meaning better than when on 3012R.

 

[bonzo75]

You were talking neutrality and recommend me to try Soulution or Spectral. Don't twist your meaning to saying it is another pointless argument my friend.

Look into my eyes and swallow it Ked. The Dalby comment is the most sloppy comment you said and you know it.

The stock tube of Emt is an eastern europe tube I think. I don't remember.

No Tang, my point to you was that when you argue you tried to move to neutrality, another can argue you moved to color. Hope that clarifies. It was my way of telling you that the post you put after the Dalby was pointless, and just what you view as neutral could be color. I would be the last to say valves are colored with respect to SS, but then I would never say Dalby or Shun Mook clamps color either

 

[manisandher]

Oh is it active? I thought it was passive.

It has input and output buffers (with ultra high and ultra low impedances respectively), so is technically active. But it provides only unity gain, which I suspect is why it may be confused as being passive.

Mine runs off a transformer, though he tends to use switching supplies nowadays.

As I said, as transparent as any passive I've ever heard. I doubt a better analogue volume control exists.

Mani.