Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[Audiophile Bill]

Your basing your class D experience on that? Not sure why your even participating in the conversation then.

No Blizz.

My class d experience is based on Devialet (I owned it) and hearing Anthem m1 (multiple occasions), hearing the Bel Canto monoblocks (ref 1000 I think) many times, hearing the mark levinson reference monoblocks many times.

 

[Blizzard]

DSD, from what I've heard, is a step closer to analog... it's more relaxed and easier to listen to. This is the big plus with vinyl for me, despite it's problems it's less irritating to the nervous system vs digital.

Can we quit the back and forth on the emulation idea? Maybe it'll work, time will tell. The arguments are beating a dead horse at this point. The phenomenon of "analog warmth" and how it's expressed is the topic of the thread and is more interesting imo...

Yes I agree we can stop obsessing on why it won't work due to complete ignorance of DSP technology. It's a pointless debate that won't be won until they hear with their own ears.

 

[Blizzard]

No Blizz.

My class d experience is based on Devialet (I owned it) and hearing Anthem m1 (multiple occasions), hearing the Bel Canto monoblocks (ref 1000 I think) many times, hearing the mark levinson reference monoblocks many times.

So you heard the Devialet amps without the DAC in the picture? How did you do that?

As for bel canto's, you don't like the sound of the Black system? That's today's class D. Saying you don't like class d is like saying you don't like class A or A/B.

 

[Purite Audio]

Fair enough, Keith. You are not the first to tell me that there are some good sounding class D amps out there as well. The other class d amp that kind of put me off the breed was the anthem m1 - that was one hideous sounding piece of gear.

Bill Hi, yes we had a couple of others here, which we decided to pass on, Bruno admits the difficulty of getting class D to sound good, it intrinsic qualities are size and efficency .
I am not particularly a Class D evangelist, ncores were included in the Grimm LS1's and they are superb, and then when Bruno announced Mola thought I would give them a try.
Honestly I wouldn't expect there to be much if any difference between the Molas and your Krells driving your loudspeakers.
Keith.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

So you heard the Devialet amps without the DAC in the picture? How did you do that?

As for bel canto's, you don't like the sound of the Black system? That's today's class D. Saying you don't like class d is like saying you don't like class A or A/B.

If you actually read my posts, I already acknowledged that exact point about the Devialet!!!!

I have not heard the Black system yet although I am interested to.

I take the point about my statement on class d but I have yet to hear one that I like - I don't think I am alone in this assertion fwiw. I am all ears though to newer and more sophisticated class d amps - in fact I am listening to one early next year based on hypex.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill Hi, yes we had a couple of others here, which we decided to pass on, Bruno admits the difficulty of getting class D to sound good, it intrinsic qualities are size and efficency .
I am not particularly a Class D evangelist, ncores were included in the Grimm LS1's and they are superb, and then when Bruno announced Mola thought I would give them a try.
Honestly I wouldn't expect there to be much if any difference between the Molas and your Krells driving your loudspeakers.
Keith.

Might well be true now since I think the hypex on which the Mola is based is stable into low impedance loads. In fact Blizz posted the data sheet of the larger hypex module and I think it was stable into 1ohm.

 

[Blizzard]

Bill Hi, yes we had a couple of others here, which we decided to pass on, Bruno admits the difficulty of getting class D to sound good, it intrinsic qualities are size and efficency .
I am not particularly a Class D evangelist, ncores were included in the Grimm LS1's and they are superb, and then when Bruno announced Mola thought I would give them a try.
Honestly I wouldn't expect there to be much if any difference between the Molas and your Krells driving your loudspeakers.
Keith.

Bruno could make his amps colored if he wanted to, but he chooses not to because he wants them to be like a "straight wire with gain". There's enough effects boxes on the market already. Here's what he had to say about it:

"It's always a dilemma whether an amp should be tuned for things like subjective bass control, sweet mids or not. One of the tricks a McIntosh does by design is to have a highish output impedance—because of the autoformer—which makes for a more liquid midrange sound and then to add a subjective sense of bass control by allowing a slight THD rise in the top end. When things like those are really tastefully balanced, such an amp can really make life hard on a 'straight wire' amp in a shootout. The signal actually comes out sounding nicer and more impressive than what went in. But on the other hand I think that to make the greatest number of people happy, one can't afford to give an amp a sound of its own because the number of new fans is probably immediately offset by the number of people who don't like that particular tuning. But it's tough to resist the occasional sonic touch-up. I can emulate the sound of pretty much any amp out there if I wanted. But so far I'm resisting. If ever I give in, it'll be obvious from the measurements and I hope someone calls me out on it. Anyhow that's why I decided I actually wanted the NC400 to have this unvarnished dead-pan delivery."

 

[Atmasphere]

Anyways I wouldn't expect a guy who's been making tube amps since 1976 to come on here and say class D combined with DSP is superior. So no point of discussing this further. People are going to continue to buy tube amps no matter what technology comes out.

As for LP on the rise, it's just a fad. I don't expect it lasting much longer than 5 years.

This is an excellent example of trolling but rather than report it, there is something I have to respond to, so while risking breaking the forum rules by copying a trolling post, here goes:
We've been studying the class D phenom since 2002. It appears that we have something to bring to the table too. So you might consider the fact that to design a really good tube amp takes the same skills to design a really good class D amp; they are both analog technologies and both have been around a while- class D being first created about 1959 and FWIW its perfectly possible to built a tube embodiment.

Your opinions are uninformed.

An example is that the LP is not a fad. The period of least production was 1992-1993. That was, just for the record (if you will pardon the expression) 23, almost 24 years ago. Fad?? I'm sorry to have to put it this way but its blatantly obvious that you've got no clue in this regard!

Yes I agree we can stop obsessing on why it won't work due to complete ignorance of DSP technology. It's a pointless debate that won't be won until they hear with their own ears.

In this post it seems that Blizz is OK with DSP sounding more 'analog'. I hear things like this all the time- digital sounding more like analog, transistors sounding more like tubes.... sheesh, the irony! And now we have to rely on our ears instead of bit of paper with the specs on it? The twists, the contradictions...! IME, when someone is willing to contradict themselves, its no longer about the topic. Its about something else unrelated.

Folks, its been fun, but this thread has outlived its usefulness. Sorry to abandon y'all, but until some of the obvious trolling has been dealt with I'm out.

 

[Blizzard]

If you actually read my posts, I already acknowledged that exact point about the Devialet!!!!

I have not heard the Black system yet although I am interested to.

I take the point about my statement on class d but I have yet to hear one that I like - I don't think I am alone in this assertion fwiw. I am all ears though to newer and more sophisticated class d amps - in fact I am listening to one early next year based on hypex.

There's a fellow right in your backyard building Hypex NC500 based amps with an input buffer designed by me. I gave him the idea for free since I have no plans on building a stand alone amp anyways. Also I could tell he was an honest hardworking guy. It allows customization of the discrete input stage opamp, much like tube rolling. These monoblock's with the Sparko discrete opamps will kill $10K amps all day long for only 1300 pounds a pair!


http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

 

[Purite Audio]

If you actually read my posts, I already acknowledged that exact point about the Devialet!!!!

I have not heard the Black system yet although I am interested to.

I take the point about my statement on class d but I have yet to hear one that I like - I don't think I am alone in this assertion fwiw. I am all ears though to newer and more sophisticated class d amps - in fact I am listening to one early next year based on hypex.

Sounds interesting, when I think of the acreage of amplification I have used in the past ,which has been replaced by two shoe box sized amps.
Please do report on your Hypex experience.
Keith.

 

[DaveC]

Bruno could make his amps colored if he wanted to, but he chooses not to because he wants them to be like a "straight wire with gain". There's enough effects boxes on the market already. Here's what he had to say about it:

"It's always a dilemma whether an amp should be tuned for things like subjective bass control, sweet mids or not. One of the tricks a McIntosh does by design is to have a highish output impedance—because of the autoformer—which makes for a more liquid midrange sound and then to add a subjective sense of bass control by allowing a slight THD rise in the top end. When things like those are really tastefully balanced, such an amp can really make life hard on a 'straight wire' amp in a shootout. The signal actually comes out sounding nicer and more impressive than what went in. But on the other hand I think that to make the greatest number of people happy, one can't afford to give an amp a sound of its own because the number of new fans is probably immediately offset by the number of people who don't like that particular tuning. But it's tough to resist the occasional sonic touch-up. I can emulate the sound of pretty much any amp out there if I wanted. But so far I'm resisting. If ever I give in, it'll be obvious from the measurements and I hope someone calls me out on it. Anyhow that's why I decided I actually wanted the NC400 to have this unvarnished dead-pan delivery."

Yup, I think other designers do... for example the Crown XLS class D amps seem to emulate a tube amp to a slight degree, they sound really similar to my EL34 SET (this is not a typical SET amp, much less distortion...). I think where Bruno is wrong though, is he assumes the same number of people would get turned off by a particular voicing as would like it, I think it's obvious that there are tweaks and sound profiles that a great majority of people would actually prefer, the questions are which ones and why, which goes back to the topic of the thread...

 

[Purite Audio]

Yup, I think other designers do... for example the Crown XLS class D amps seem to emulate a tube amp to a slight degree, they sound really similar to my EL34 SET (this is not a typical SET amp, much less distortion...). I think where Bruno is wrong though, is he assumes the same number of people would get turned off by a particular voicing as would like it, I think it's obvious that there are tweaks and sound profiles that a great majority of people would actually prefer, the questions are which ones and why, which goes back to the topic of the thread...

Bruno has included 16 different target curves in his new Kii loudspeakers .
So you can tailor the sound to your preference.
Keith.

 

[Blizzard]

This is an excellent example of trolling but rather than report it, there is something I have to respond to, so while risking breaking the forum rules by copying a trolling post, here goes:
We've been studying the class D phenom since 2002. It appears that we have something to bring to the table too. So you might consider the fact that to design a really good tube amp takes the same skills to design a really good class D amp; they are both analog technologies and both have been around a while- class D being first created about 1959 and FWIW its perfectly possible to built a tube embodiment.

Your opinions are uninformed.

An example is that the LP is not a fad. The period of least production was 1992-1993. That was, just for the record (if you will pardon the expression) 23, almost 24 years ago. Fad?? I'm sorry to have to put it this way but its blatantly obvious that you've got no clue in this regard!




In this post it seems that Blizz is OK with DSP sounding more 'analog'. I hear things like this all the time- digital sounding more like analog, transistors sounding more like tubes.... sheesh, the irony! And now we have to rely on our ears instead of bit of paper with the specs on it? The twists, the contradictions...! IME, when someone is willing to contradict themselves, its no longer about the topic. Its about something else unrelated.

Folks, its been fun, but this thread has outlived its usefulness. Sorry to abandon y'all, but until some of the obvious trolling has been dealt with I'm out.

How is pointing out the obvious trolling? Would you ever expect the CEO from Mercedes to go on a BMW thread and announce the latest BMW is superior? Obviously not.

And about vinyl, let me know when the production numbers surpass digital in popularity. Both downloads and streaming. If this time comes, I will take a more serious look.

Anyways, I think there's room in this industry for different ideas. Let's let the end users decide what's better for their needs and desires. So no hard feelings.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Devialet is not really a traditional class D design.. but it is a very good one box solution and even my older D premier has great new features included every time they update firmware.. but it has to be taken as a whole.
Unfortunately , devialets marketing blab is superhyperbolic , especially with their phantoms and of course their AIR steaming has been a disaster.
Most of the vivid owners I know have bought into devialet after using many other multibox solutions.. the pairing is very serendipitous with the speakers and its a very simple elegant system. Power chord and speaker cables..maybe a digital cable , is all you have to have angst about.


Even more importantly for me is the fact I use a 5 kva pure sine wave inverter run off 6 x 200ah battery banks as my master power supply to my music room , we have shocking electricity quality here in South Africa and often have rolling blackouts .. so my 4 class D 1kw SVS subs and my mains can run to just about any level I want without exceeding the supply wattage due to their conversion efficiency.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There's a fellow right in your backyard building Hypex NC500 based amps with an input buffer designed by me. I gave him the idea for free since I have no plans on building a stand alone amp anyways. Also I could tell he was an honest hardworking guy. It allows customization of the discrete input stage opamp, much like tube rolling. These monoblock's with the Sparko discrete opamps will kill $10K amps all day long for only 1300 pounds a pair!


http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

Thanks - will check them out.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Sounds interesting, when I think of the acreage of amplification I have used in the past ,which has been replaced by two shoe box sized amps.
Please do report on your Hypex experience.
Keith.

It is enticing to have 2 little boxes I agree wholeheartedly. Imagine they are reliable also and cheap to fix.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yup, I think other designers do... for example the Crown XLS class D amps seem to emulate a tube amp to a slight degree, they sound really similar to my EL34 SET (this is not a typical SET amp, much less distortion...). I think where Bruno is wrong though, is he assumes the same number of people would get turned off by a particular voicing as would like it, I think it's obvious that there are tweaks and sound profiles that a great majority of people would actually prefer, the questions are which ones and why, which goes back to the topic of the thread...

Great point Dave! Also fwiw Mcintosh aren't doing too bad with their philosophy!

 

[esldude]

I like blizzard but for now I think I will stick to just listening to a variety of amps in my house and buying the one I like most. Works for me. its a fun novelty idea no more than that.

The big problem to me at least is..
If this works and is perfect what sane person would bother with trying to make products that sound better anymore as after they invest millions or at least thousands in development blizzard comes along and copies the sound and sells it for less. The whole industry will collapse... Net result of this is less incentive to develop and ultimately worse sound for us as a result.


Idea for blizzard is focus on emulating headphone amps. Market it with a few settings for known headphone. Big market easier to get into. Less resistance from the industry. Plus cables and such are more universal in this area... Job done.

Well Bob Carver demonstrated his amp of a few hundred dollars could sound like a $5k amp. That exercise had effectively zero impact on the business. Comments here should show Blizzard a great product doing everything he claims will have the same results.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Sounds interesting, when I think of the acreage of amplification I have used in the past ,which has been replaced by two shoe box sized amps.
Please do report on your Hypex experience.
Keith.

I do hope is goes better than this guy's experience with the hypex monoblocks - ouch.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/08/mola-mola-makua-and-kaluga-review.html

 

[Purite Audio]

I do hope is goes better than this guy's experience with the hypex monoblocks - ouch.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/08/mola-mola-makua-and-kaluga-review.html

Didn't take any advertising!
KR Keith.