What I'm talking about is no different than what Devialet has done with SAM. It's just DSP to try to optimize sound to particular taste. Whether or not people find it effective in their system is irrelevant, because it's optional to enable it.
Great article on "Analogue Warmth"
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What I'm talking about is no different than what Devialet has done with SAM. It's just DSP to try to optimize sound to particular taste. Whether or not people find it effective in their system is irrelevant, because it's optional to enable it.
Well if the exception proves the rule.. That would explain the resurgence of vinl among the youth.
Blizz, I must be a glutton for punishment for returning to this thread, but this review EXACTLY mirrors my comparison of the Mola Mola Kaluga 400-1200W/ch Class D v Bakoon 12W/ch Class AB, both on the 100dB+ eff Cesarro Liszts. The class AB amp was alive on the Liszts, palpable texture, livewire dynamics, a totally 'real' quality, akin to acoustic instruments heard in a live setting, tone, texture and energy. The Bakoon truly is an underrated amp, and would be my go-to if I reverted from SETs. In comparison, the Class D amp may have exhibited moderately more grip, but in every other respect it failed - truncated harmonics, dry texture, ability to go loud but flat dynamics, just nothing that sounded like real instruments.
So, no need to be so bitter about the review. We SET/Class A-AB afficionados don't cry wolf when a tube amp is damned w/faint praise. And didn't you notice his glowing review of the preamp?
So, no need to be so bitter about the review. We SET/Class A-AB afficionados don't cry wolf when a tube amp is damned w/faint praise. And didn't you notice his glowing review of the preamp?
Yes I agree. Bruno is quite stubborn when it comes to sticking to what he believes in. If he really wanted to he could have made it into a dream amp the folks on your side of the fence would love. But it's an OEM amp module. He can leave that up to the OEM's.
Once again I will post his quote:
"It's always a dilemma whether an amp should be tuned for things like subjective bass control, sweet mids or not. One of the tricks a McIntosh does by design is to have a highish output impedance—because of the autoformer—which makes for a more liquid midrange sound and then to add a subjective sense of bass control by allowing a slight THD rise in the top end. When things like those are really tastefully balanced, such an amp can really make life hard on a 'straight wire' amp in a shootout. The signal actually comes out sounding nicer and more impressive than what went in. But on the other hand I think that to make the greatest number of people happy, one can't afford to give an amp a sound of its own because the number of new fans is probably immediately offset by the number of people who don't like that particular tuning. But it's tough to resist the occasional sonic touch-up. I can emulate the sound of pretty much any amp out there if I wanted. But so far I'm resisting. If ever I give in, it'll be obvious from the measurements and I hope someone calls me out on it. Anyhow that's why I decided I actually wanted the NC400 to have this unvarnished dead-pan delivery."
He used pretty much the same input buffer on the Kaluga, which is why it sounds like it does.
This is a crazy line of argument Blizz, are you saying this just to be argumentative?
So, are you saying that if two Class D amps were a'b-ed to you, both ostensibly known for being neutral and transparent, but one set was far more dynamic, textured, airy, agile and toneful than the other, you wouldn't gauge that set superior to the other?
Or are we taking some kind of extreme objective mantra, that all Class D are created equal?
You feel Devialet, Mark Levinson, Mola Mola are of all of a kind, all sound the same, all are equally desirable?
If you don't, then this can only mean the very things I feel the Class AB Bakoons beat the Class D Molas on, would appeal to you, and would control your choice.
This is not some kind of trash Class D at all costs mentality by me, and others. The Liszts thru the Bakoons were spookily alive and involving, making the hairs on my neck stand on end. The same spkrs thru the Molas had me looking at my watch occasionally.
I've done my best to be as civil as possible since the moderators gave us a communal slapped wrist, and maybe you should be in less argumentative mood, and really look at what yr saying.
When you say "it", I believe you are referring to "high end", in which case I agree, totally.
I'm saying that the Hypex Ncore amps can be tuned to sound any way you want them to sound by changing out the input buffer. Mola Mola being a branch of Hypex, designed to amps to be as "dead-pan accurate" as possible. As a reference for accuracy, just like Bruno said in the quote.
He's leaving it up to the OEM's to create their own designer versions.
I can build you 2 versions using the same SMPS and NC1200 module where one you would go nuts over, and the other you would cringe over like the Mola Mola. I have done this for years already with input buffers. This is why I'm on to doing the same with DSP instead. Because it's much easier to push a button, than it is to swap input buffers.
I've now heard DSP/DRC in 3 rooms, using Class D amps, I just didn't rate the sound in any of them, although one was spectacular for many reasons unrelated to this thread.
DSP to give me that adrenalin rush? I'm afraid I'm not a cyborg yet.
I'm sure you mean well Blizz, but unfortunately I object in the strongest possible terms of your hijacking of this thread. I'm culpable myself, for feeding into yr sales pitch, and in fact I will be making an approach to the moderators, that what was one of the most interesting current threads on WBF has been taken over by you.
If you had any measure of social etiquette, you would introduce an idea, by all means promote a deeply held opinion for a handful of pages, and then allow the thread to go back OT.
No, you proceed to squat here, continually batting the ball back. You should be opening up your own thread on the subject, not skirting on the coattails of someone else's idea.
I thought you were graciously offered yr own sub forum - isn't this enough for you? Or is it publicity at all costs?
I'm sorry if I'm breaking forum rules, but I feel really strongly about this. Apologies if my comments have crossed the boundary of unacceptablity, but this is what happens when my back is gotten up.
DSP to give me that adrenalin rush? I'm afraid I'm not a cyborg yet.
I'm sure you mean well Blizz, but unfortunately I object in the strongest possible terms of your hijacking of this thread. I'm culpable myself, for feeding into yr sales pitch, and in fact I will be making an approach to the moderators, that what was one of the most interesting current threads on WBF has been taken over by you.
If you had any measure of social etiquette, you would introduce an idea, by all means promote a deeply held opinion for a handful of pages, and then allow the thread to go back OT.
No, you proceed to squat here, continually batting the ball back. You should be opening up your own thread on the subject, not skirting on the coattails of someone else's idea.
I thought you were graciously offered yr own sub forum - isn't this enough for you? Or is it publicity at all costs?
I'm sorry if I'm breaking forum rules, but I feel really strongly about this. Apologies if my comments have crossed the boundary of unacceptablity, but this is what happens when my back is gotten up.
I am a firm beleiver in fidelity to the live music. For ths who beleive in fidelity to the source, it is pure fallcy to believe that phiolosophy dictates"....unvarnished dead pan delivery." If you want to be called on something I'll call you on that nonsense.
Hijacking my own thread by talking about issues that pertain to the topic??
DSP/DRC isn't to accomplish the same goals. They are not for tonal qualities, it's more for timing and room correction. It's very apparent that you have no idea what this thread is even about. Whether it's coloration's introduced in the analog domain, or digital domain, it's still on topic.
Well in terms of fidelity there are two possibilities when two amps sound genuinely different. One is accurate and the other is not. Or both are inaccurate though in different ways or to different degrees. The option that both are accurate and different should obviously not make sense.
Amps sounding as different as you describe means at a bare minimum one is inaccurate. Which one?
There is then something of a philosophical question. If you can determine which is inaccurate, and it is the one that is alive, and wonderful and too your liking, then what? Is it the better amp? If you decide it is due to a preference, then all is fine. Maybe an even better choice of inaccuracies could sound even more preferential.
At least in essence Blizzard's idea is to use an accurate baseline product. Then if people have other preferences than true high fidelity to the source, it should be possible to create those inaccuracies starting from an accurate baseline if you know what causes the preference or can emulate it. Do you see a problem with that as a concept?
That's where subjective tastes come into the picture. Everyone has different hearing, and tastes. His goal with the Mola Mola was to reproduce the source exactly as it was before it enters the gear. He explains it quite clearly in the quote I posted twice. No hidden messages there.
Bypass testing amplifiers.......
ftp://bryston.com/pub/reviews/Swedish Review 14B SST, part III.pdf
I mentioned earlier that a French publication tests amplifiers in series. I was mistaken it was a Swedish publication. The above is about a Bryston amp they tested. Bryston actually changed the output filter design which made the amp go from not passing the test as accurate to passing it.
Their method of the bypass test is to load the amplifier under test with a difficult dummy load with reactances to match a real speaker. They then tap the output, divide the voltage down to unity (input matches output within .05 db or less). Play the amp (thru another amp) while comparing amp in circuit vs amp bypassed. A group of people listen to and describe the differences they hear. Then they continue the comparison blind.
They report two amps have been so good in the sighted portion of the bypass test nothing was noticed. One of those two was nevertheless detected in the blind portion of the test. Only this revised Bryston was undetectable both sighted and blind.
I don't know how many amps they have tested this way. I have done a few myself though only listening sighted in my case. Not many amps are capable of being undetectable this way. Very good ones get rather close. Some well liked amps don't get close leading me to think they are liked for their carefully styled inaccuracies.
I wish this method of amplifier comparing was more common. It would slay a number of entrenched myths.
ftp://bryston.com/pub/reviews/Swedish Review 14B SST, part III.pdf
I mentioned earlier that a French publication tests amplifiers in series. I was mistaken it was a Swedish publication. The above is about a Bryston amp they tested. Bryston actually changed the output filter design which made the amp go from not passing the test as accurate to passing it.
Their method of the bypass test is to load the amplifier under test with a difficult dummy load with reactances to match a real speaker. They then tap the output, divide the voltage down to unity (input matches output within .05 db or less). Play the amp (thru another amp) while comparing amp in circuit vs amp bypassed. A group of people listen to and describe the differences they hear. Then they continue the comparison blind.
They report two amps have been so good in the sighted portion of the bypass test nothing was noticed. One of those two was nevertheless detected in the blind portion of the test. Only this revised Bryston was undetectable both sighted and blind.
I don't know how many amps they have tested this way. I have done a few myself though only listening sighted in my case. Not many amps are capable of being undetectable this way. Very good ones get rather close. Some well liked amps don't get close leading me to think they are liked for their carefully styled inaccuracies.
I wish this method of amplifier comparing was more common. It would slay a number of entrenched myths.
The battle "for reproduce the source exactly as it was before it enters the gear" has been going for long. We can anticipate that a more exact will come to the market next month. Only the test of time will say who will be the winners ...
I have been using the Bakoon amp for what nearly five years now and the Molas for eighteen months, I simply do not recognise the amps Marc is describing, the Molas and Bakoon are pretty similar , both low distortion solid state, the Molas do I believe control the upper bass of the Cessaro Liszt better than the Bakoon.
There is no truncating of notes or any other subjective nonsense that Marc describes, the Molas are just glorious amplifiers, Marc heard the Liszt/Bakoon for an hour and a half two years ago in an otherwise completely different system.
I think I have tried every class and topology of amplifier manufactured, single ended, parallel single ended, push pull, OTL, Class A
A/D Valve/SS hybrid and Bruno's designs are the most transparent amplifiers I have heard.
As far as I can tell the have no sound of their own, as Bruno says once you take away everything else there is only the music.
Keith.
There is no truncating of notes or any other subjective nonsense that Marc describes, the Molas are just glorious amplifiers, Marc heard the Liszt/Bakoon for an hour and a half two years ago in an otherwise completely different system.
I think I have tried every class and topology of amplifier manufactured, single ended, parallel single ended, push pull, OTL, Class A
A/D Valve/SS hybrid and Bruno's designs are the most transparent amplifiers I have heard.
As far as I can tell the have no sound of their own, as Bruno says once you take away everything else there is only the music.
Keith.
Yes, you are dealing with yet another manifestation from high end becoming sonic flavor preferences and the commonly encountered inability to separate that from genuine fidelity. I hope you are successful changing some minds, but it isn't going to be easy to do.
You might be right Blizz, I've just seen it was you that originated the thread. Apologies. Time for me to be put out to pasture. Over and out.
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