Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[FrantzM]

Yes, you are dealing with yet another manifestation from high end becoming sonic flavor preferences and the commonly encountered inability to separate that from genuine fidelity. I hope you are successful changing some minds, but it isn't going to be easy to do.

Was about to post something similar you beat me to it...

Was that you who posted that if it is all subjective, how do we measure progress? Harman , the very much decried Harman has some answers, that suggest the more linear the system usually the stronger the preference when knowledge is removed but such studies are rejected vehemently by many audiophiles. Oh Well !!!...

 

[microstrip]

(...) Some well liked amps don't get close leading me to think they are liked for their carefully styled inaccuracies. (...)

I really appreciate your kind words for what others call "distortions". But yes, IMHO the great amplifiers handle the "inaccuracies" in a way they do not mask the recording information, allowing some of us to systematically perceive more of the useful and enjoyable part of the recording.

 

[esldude]

The ones that passed the test would likely be frowned upon around here

I agree. I also find nothing wrong with it. I would like for people to know they have a preference different from accurate in place of the oft assumed idea what you like is more accurate.

 

[Blizzard]

I have been using the Bakoon amp for what nearly five years now and the Molas for eighteen months, I simply do not recognise the amps Marc is describing, the Molas and Bakoon are pretty similar , both low distortion solid state, the Molas do I believe control the upper bass of the Cessaro Liszt better than the Bakoon.
There is no truncating of notes or any other subjective nonsense that Marc describes, the Molas are just glorious amplifiers, Marc heard the Liszt/Bakoon for an hour and a half two years ago in an otherwise completely different system.
I think I have tried every class and topology of amplifier manufactured, single ended, parallel single ended, push pull, OTL, Class A
A/D Valve/SS hybrid and Bruno's designs are the most transparent amplifiers I have heard.
As far as I can tell the have no sound of their own, as Bruno says once you take away everything else there is only the music.
Keith.

That's right Keith. This is one thing we can agree on. You really need to hear his latest masterpiece combined with a state of the art, pure class A discrete transistor input stage. It truly is something else!

 

[microstrip]

Was about to post something similar you beat me to it...

Was that you who posted that if it is all subjective, how do we measure progress? Harman , the very much decried Harman has some answers, that suggest the more linear the system usually the stronger the preference when knowledge is removed but such studies are rejected vehemently by many audiophiles. Oh Well !!!...

Can you tell us when Harman published studies on electronics preferences?

 

[esldude]

I really appreciate your kind words for what others call "distortions". But yes, IMHO the great amplifiers handle the "inaccuracies" in a way they do not mask the recording information, allowing some of us to systematically perceive more of the useful and enjoyable part of the recording.

If a signal is with all accuracy in all ways possible sent to the loudspeaker, if you like something else it is inaccurate.

Some of the great amplifiers mask in ways to subjectively enhance the reality. Now if you really determine the accurate, you can then alter the accuracy under control to enhance what you perceive. Doing this is far, far better than building all variations in design to get there from here. It seems a rather trivial point to how this might allow better results than ever. Paying for software adjustable or modeled inaccuracy seems likely to be much more efficient than the way it is done now.

 

[microstrip]

I agree. I also find nothing wrong with it. I would like for people to know they have a preference different from accurate in place of the oft assumed idea what you like is more accurate.

For marketing purposes it is very difficult to explain why "inaccurate" can sound better than accurate. So most just claim to be more accurate than their neighbor. But most of the high-end just claims to be more "accurate" to the sound of "unamplified music". The artist and sound engineer intentions are just forum talk.

 

[Blizzard]

I know guys who never drink water. They say it's too boring. You can try to give them a glass of the purest mountain spring water in the world, and they simply aren't interested. However if you offer them a glass of New York City tap water with some juice crystals dissolved in it, or a glass of Coke, they will happily gulp it down. Strange how some people are.

 

[esldude]

http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm

Here is a bit more about how the amplifier under test was done by the Swedish Music and Sound engineering publication.

I notice this is from the early 1990's. Too bad this comparative methodology didn't become common.

It would not be too hard to test one amp against another this way as well. Setup switching between two amps and switch between them.

 

[audio-land]

And about vinyl, let me know when the production numbers surpass digital in popularity. Both downloads and streaming. If this time comes, I will take a more serious look.

Digital popularity has nothing to do with the sound. Price and convenience are the most advantage of it.

 

[Blizzard]

Digital popularity has nothing to do with the sound. Price and convenience are the most advantage of it.

Yes but isn't it nice to have the best of all worlds? We are there with DSD 256.

 

[Blizzard]

http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm

Here is a bit more about how the amplifier under test was done by the Swedish Music and Sound engineering publication.

I notice this is from the early 1990's. Too bad this comparative methodology didn't become common.

It would not be too hard to test one amp against another this way as well. Setup switching between two amps and switch between them.

It would never happen in a world where those with the deepest pockets manipulate the market. It's just not politically correct enough.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Digital popularity has nothing to do with the sound. Price and convenience are the most advantage of it.

Not true. I like the sound of digital better. Many people do.

Tim

 

[Al M.]

Not true. I like the sound of digital better. Many people do.

Tim

The sound of digital, even of the early implementations, was always superior to the lower-fi turntables of Average Joe. Of course most people thought it was better and abandoned their vinyl in droves. The earl digital 'nasties' were inaudible on Average Joe's not very transparent systems.

I also do think that my current digital rig will beat virtually any turntable/phonostage combo for the same price ($ 8K). Yes, that analog rig may sound nice and certainly will have its virtues, but analog at that level has problems, including a too soft and rounded sound with an inability to portray the natural hardness of a lot of sound from unamplified instruments, that make it just not interesting for me. At the same time I can see the attraction for some, and they may feel differently about what I said about digital/analog in this price range.

Only when it comes to top-level turntable/phonostage combos that I personally cannot possibly afford, analog becomes interesting -- very interesting that is. And digital has a hard time keeping up with that, except perhaps when it comes to such uber-implementations as the 4-box dCS Vivaldi stack.

Having said all that, I am an all-digital guy and will always stay that way. I have no personal stake in analog and thus no inherent biases towards it.

 

[FrantzM]

Can you tell us when Harman published studies on electronics preferences?

I can't speakers yes.. Have I misspoke? Where did I say it was Electronics? "Systems" I wrote ..

Happy Holidays...

 

[FrantzM]

Digital popularity has nothing to do with the sound. Price and convenience are the most advantage of it.

Yes the Price of the DCS Vivaldi is enticing ... Its convenience been 4 boxes.

 

[Gregadd]

That's where subjective tastes come into the picture. Everyone has different hearing, and tastes. His goal with the Mola Mola was to reproduce the source exactly as it was before it enters the gear. He explains it quite clearly in the quote I posted twice. No hidden messages there.

That is the beauty of explaining clearly.The fault is obvious.Let me explain clearly. If everything sounds good,it's a filter. Iif everything sounds bad, it's a filter. It pains me greatly that somene owns an amp that sounds as he describes under the guise of "fidelity tothre dource." If you have to listen to that throw it in the trash and go to a concert.

Seriously.

 

[FrantzM]

That is the beauty of explaining clearly.The fault is obvious.Let me explain clearly. If everything sounds good,it's a filter. Iif everything sounds bad,iit's afilter. It pains me greatly that somene owns an amp that sounds as he describes under the guise of "fidelity thre dource." If you have to listen to that throw it in the trash ansd go to a concert..

Seriously.

Gregg

Have you heard the amp in question?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not true. I like the sound of digital better. Many people do.

Tim

which 'many people' might that be?

I've not yet met anyone who 'like's the sound of digital better than analog (vinyl or tape)' who has heard SOTA of both. which proves nothing.

one would need to be interested enough in ultimate music reproduction performance to actually make the effort to hear SOTA of both in a place where both exist. and how many of the 'many people' have done that?

I thought about whether I would regret dipping my toe back into this quagmire.....we will see. I just could not resist Tim's tease.

 

[amirm]

ftp://bryston.com/pub/reviews/Swedish Review 14B SST, part III.pdf

I mentioned earlier that a French publication tests amplifiers in series. I was mistaken it was a Swedish publication. The above is about a Bryston amp they tested. Bryston actually changed the output filter design which made the amp go from not passing the test as accurate to passing it.

Their method of the bypass test is to load the amplifier under test with a difficult dummy load with reactances to match a real speaker. They then tap the output, divide the voltage down to unity (input matches output within .05 db or less). Play the amp (thru another amp) while comparing amp in circuit vs amp bypassed. A group of people listen to and describe the differences they hear. Then they continue the comparison blind.

They report two amps have been so good in the sighted portion of the bypass test nothing was noticed. One of those two was nevertheless detected in the blind portion of the test. Only this revised Bryston was undetectable both sighted and blind.

I don't know how many amps they have tested this way. I have done a few myself though only listening sighted in my case. Not many amps are capable of being undetectable this way. Very good ones get rather close. Some well liked amps don't get close leading me to think they are liked for their carefully styled inaccuracies.

I wish this method of amplifier comparing was more common. It would slay a number of entrenched myths.

I have written about this many times and as you, consider it *the* most effective way to test amplifiers for transparency. They have tested countless amplifiers this way. Very few have achieved transparency. One was the Bryston that you mention and the audio was Audio Research from my post back in 2011:

It is amazing how coincidences work. In the process of arguing a point on another forum, I landed on evaluation of one of two amps ever by the Swedish AES society to have been deemed transparent in a blind test of comparing their input to output. One was the Byrston. And then other, drum rolls please..... Audio Research! Here is from the man who ran the tests (Ing Ohman): [F/E testing is input to output comparison testing]:

"One of the most transparent amplifier (thus giving low detectability
in F / E-listening) that I encountered during my early experiments with F/E-
listening (in the 70's) was an Audio Research, with very many tubes in! "

Everyone says tubes color the sound. Yet this is one of only two amps he has ever found that don't color the sound.

And oh, welcome to the forum Sparky.