I have followed your posts from the Wam, Rodney, and I respect your journey. You have always been busy trying Diy room treatments etc and learning along the journey. That said, if you owned 'some cars' before, I.e. a few, you are wealthy 
Have you got "the" sound, and are stepping off major upgrading?
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
Bonzo , I grew my cars..American Muscle..
Bought a low end model ,fixed it , sold it on , bought better etc..eventually ending up with 2 corvettes and a Camaro..
I kept the one vette and sold the other 2 cars, paid for my system. I get 5000% more enjoyment out the system than I ever got looking at the cars languishing in the garage..
due to poor exchange rate and the junk bond status of our Rand currency hifi has become uberexpensive here in South Africa.
Bought a low end model ,fixed it , sold it on , bought better etc..eventually ending up with 2 corvettes and a Camaro..
I kept the one vette and sold the other 2 cars, paid for my system. I get 5000% more enjoyment out the system than I ever got looking at the cars languishing in the garage..
due to poor exchange rate and the junk bond status of our Rand currency hifi has become uberexpensive here in South Africa.
Awesome. Learning, effort, experimentation, and growth is the consistent thing in both your car and audio hobby. You should get into cooking, you will be a great chef in a few years.
I never try to get my system sounding like live cos that's impossible , my aim is to make my system present so that each album is an "experience" rather than just music.
I get there with what I got .. but there is still room for more..
I am not hugely wealthy so as to afford anything my heart desires..I went "all in" on my system after selling some cars. I bought the best I could afford and will have to stick there as I cannot afford better (if there is a "better")
However I do fiddle a lot , but not with equipment per se , more with my target curves etc of my Dirac/Acourate room correction , placement and so on.. "free" tweaks so to speak.
I listen to music at least 6 hours a day..as I also work a bit from my music room. Tons of new music ..TIDAL!!!
I class myself as a card carrying audiophile.. the system and dedicated room indicate that .. I even bought a TT just for show..to enhance my credentials
Rodney, this is what I was trying to communicate to Bonzo, and Ron, last night, and it's been an ongoing divergence between us. Ron maybe understands my viewpoint more.
For me trying to emulate the tone of live small club/restaraunt smoky jazz trio is my benchmark. The NATs/ZUs get me closer to this than any other topology I've heard, and so I'm beyond happy. Tweaking over the last 2 years has got me an extra level of transparency, bass linearity, s'stage and taming of room acoustics, and so I'm getting a smidgeon more of the live classical and live rock experiences. Great, but the live jazz tone is the deciding factor for me more than classical dynamics.
And so this is it, is the "experience" whole more than the sum of it's parts, and consistent across recordings and across genres.
I really feel I'm in the zone re this, hence the first time I can honestly say stepping off doesn't fill me w/anxiety that a MUCH better sound is around the corner.
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At a certain level , you really dont get "better" sound , you just get different.. better is very subjective to the listener as their better might not be yours.. IMO you wont "step off " the treadmill , it may have stopped momentarily for you..but reading your posts , looking at your equipment and tweaks etc.. it wont be long before the thing starts moving again ..
At a certain level , you really dont get "better" sound , you just get different.. better is very subjective to the listener as their better might not be yours.. IMO you wont "step off " the treadmill , it may have stopped momentarily for you..but reading your posts , looking at your equipment and tweaks etc.. it wont be long before the thing starts moving again ..
I think he will step off just to prove me wrong
Bonzo, you'll hear about you being proved wrong along w/everyone else . For me, this recent series of changes and the level that has been cemented was a bit of a surprise to say the least, and a really pleasant one at that.
Since I've got a reg amount of skepticism from you re my gearhead/incessant upgrading/boxswapping/tweaks craziness, surely I deserve a little credit from you online for realising I've reached a level of kharma, and am not going further down the very roads you criticise me for? Put aside your aversion to my sound, surely a little pat on the back is in order? Or maybe not.
I'll get my rocks off w/further tweaks eg Shun Mooks Diamond Resonators, which if my initial, wholly positive experience is anything to go by, will max out the whole tonal journey that I'm on. But if indeed they prove superfluous, I'll call a halt here too.
The Spiers air table for tt is part ergonomic need/part true engineering genius, and since tweaks to my Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt/Terminator air bearing linear arm have all proved so effective, isolating it down to 3Hz w/the Spiers should be phenomenal.
And imminently, Furutech US sockets so I can fully unlock the potential of my Sablon Gran Reserva power cord loom (eventually moving to dedicated lines).
A big upgrade, potentially the biggest one of all, and certainly the most expensive looms - the dedicated room after my house move next year. I would be building a mancave whether i was into audio or not, but now i have good reason to get the most radical step sorted, in effect meaning any luxury purchases like AG Trios/Cessaro Liszts/Vivid Giya G1s-additional amps is well and truly off the agenda.
So yes, I will still love to plan and spend, but now it's fine tuning the system, and maybe a whole new acoustic w/the new room.
. For me, this recent series of changes and the level that has been cemented was a bit of a surprise to say the least, and a really pleasant one at that.Since I've got a reg amount of skepticism from you re my gearhead/incessant upgrading/boxswapping/tweaks craziness, surely I deserve a little credit from you online for realising I've reached a level of kharma, and am not going further down the very roads you criticise me for? Put aside your aversion to my sound, surely a little pat on the back is in order? Or maybe not.
I'll get my rocks off w/further tweaks eg Shun Mooks Diamond Resonators, which if my initial, wholly positive experience is anything to go by, will max out the whole tonal journey that I'm on. But if indeed they prove superfluous, I'll call a halt here too.
The Spiers air table for tt is part ergonomic need/part true engineering genius, and since tweaks to my Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt/Terminator air bearing linear arm have all proved so effective, isolating it down to 3Hz w/the Spiers should be phenomenal.
And imminently, Furutech US sockets so I can fully unlock the potential of my Sablon Gran Reserva power cord loom (eventually moving to dedicated lines).
A big upgrade, potentially the biggest one of all, and certainly the most expensive looms - the dedicated room after my house move next year. I would be building a mancave whether i was into audio or not, but now i have good reason to get the most radical step sorted, in effect meaning any luxury purchases like AG Trios/Cessaro Liszts/Vivid Giya G1s-additional amps is well and truly off the agenda.
So yes, I will still love to plan and spend, but now it's fine tuning the system, and maybe a whole new acoustic w/the new room.
Sure, good if you don't upgrade. But did you say you are going for Kharma...?
Yep, INNER Kharma (in my feverish brain), not OUTER Kharma(s) (in the room). I did fancy the Kharma Exquisites once, the demo w/Tenor amps, Clearaudio tt and DCs cdp from the early 2000's, was possibly my first experience of a really good high end sound, above and beyond the sturm and drang of Wilson Maxx's/Krell's I had as my only other high end reference point.
Doing your room will pay off big time..an upgrade that continues giving despite the equipment that passes thru it.
I can tell you one thing , improvements in sonics will be an order of magnitude bigger than any other tweak.
I can tell you one thing , improvements in sonics will be an order of magnitude bigger than any other tweak.
Rodney, I'm sure you're absolutely right. My tentative expt w/GIKs (6x 242s at first and second reflection pts and behind spkrs, corner bass traps and mega bass trap behind me) has been very interesting and instructive.
In effect this last spend may be the one that keeps on giving, although I'm loathe to end up w/an overtreated space, so my priority will get the dimensions right, judicious absorption, and good power to it. There isn't really an equivalent of Rives in the UK, but I'll plan as best I can.
I am hoping and praying you are right. I recently upgraded my signal and speaker cables and found a terrific improvement in my system. The designer is currently working on plans for the room remodel, to be passed to the acoustical designer for appropriate treatments that will all be (hopefully) behind the scene. If the room sonics improve more than my cable loom upgrade I'll be happy, if not I am afraid I'll kick myself for not just going bigger on gear upgrades. That said, I do expect significant improvement and also the enjoyment of a custom designed, elegant listening space. Still hoping to get it all together a bit before Christmas, else I will wait until spring.
Fine tuning setup is not too hard to do yourself and it doesn't cost much. Get Room EQ Wizzard (REW is free!), spend 200 Eu on a USB mic and an external soundcard for a laptop, and follow Amir's and Home Theater Shack's website instructions for connections and using the program. You'll be able to see exactly what effect each change you make to your room has on frequency response, as well as room modes and decay times. You still need to use your ears, but it's a lot less trial and error and you'll learn even more than you have already.
You tune the room to your taste and volume..my room has been tuned for music played loud or at least lifelike levels so I have a room deader than neutral... so it doesnt overload
You can add either liveliness or deadness to taste anyway..my test is to hear my voice in my head sound natural..I mean hear my voice with my own ears.
Measurements are problematic..everyone thinks flat is the bees knees..but its not..at least at sitting position it's not.
You can never really have too many bass traps..
But notwithstanding , treating a dedicated room in any way is way better than nothing at all..
I spent $15k on mine
Here's a link
http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,41561.0.html
Money seriously well spent .. I consider it part of the system..
You can add either liveliness or deadness to taste anyway..my test is to hear my voice in my head sound natural..I mean hear my voice with my own ears.
Measurements are problematic..everyone thinks flat is the bees knees..but its not..at least at sitting position it's not.
You can never really have too many bass traps..
But notwithstanding , treating a dedicated room in any way is way better than nothing at all..
I spent $15k on mine
Here's a link
http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,41561.0.html
Money seriously well spent .. I consider it part of the system..
It is very hard to keep a rational sense of proportion in audio. It is hard to actually know what one audiophile or reviewer's "huge" improvement really means in absolute terms. Too often it is hyperbole, and we do not accurately know the context of the listening equipment setup, the room or the listener's baseline, tastes, experience with live performance, etc.
So, we just have to listen for ourselves and form our own judgements.
Over many decades, I have done countless equipment upgrades. They obviously provided an improvement or I would not have committed to them. The very, very biggest upgrade of them all by far was 8 years ago when I discovered three things at the same time: discretely recorded multichannel, DSP room EQ and hi rez audio. That was the only one of all my upgrades I could honestly describe as "huge". Mch and DSP EQ would be at the top of my list of transformative technologies. Hi rez digital is a worthwhile refinement over CD quality, but it belongs quite a bit further down my list.
In putting together my initial Mch system, I did learn quite a few other things about value and proportion in audio. My Mch prepro was relatively inexpensive compared to components in my stereo front end, as was the new Mch disc player. Yet, I was so smitten by the apparent realism of Mch music reproduction that I saw no point in holding onto some very nice, very expensive stereo components from the existing system. I had started the project assuming Mch was just going to be for video and movies, while I would continue to listen to CDs in stereo, as before. That changed, literally in seconds, on hearing my first Mch SACD, confirmed by many hours of listening after that.
So, I switched whole heartedly to Mch with Room EQ. The components involved were cheap compared to high end stereo gear, although my smaller center and surround speakers match my large mains and all are from a bona fide high end company. The economics, sales volumes and business models of Mch components, derived mainly from the HT marketplace, make them generally much less expensive compared to the low volume, boutiquey gear we know from the traditional audio high end. The upshot was I could resell my valuable, used stereo front end electronics to cover the cost of the Mch upgrade almost entirely. Yet, from a listening standpoint, I felt much, much more satisfied with Mch sound.
DSP EQ was an important side benefit of this, since the HT Mch market has embraced it, whereas most of the high end has not, to put it mildly. But, its contribution is also truly huge, and I am a lifetime convert to the technology.
I learned a number of other useful things during the upgrade through careful side-by-side audition in stereo with DSP EQ off. As if we already did not know, cables are way overpriced and overpraised for what they can actually contribute sonically. Some inexpensive cables I auditioned actually sounded slightly better than the pricey ones I had been using. Also, with a powered subwoofer now in the Mch system handling deep bass chores, hyper expensive amps honestly provided little if any sonic advantage over some carefully selected amps at reasonable prices.
I have carefully upgraded several things since that big epiphany. Most radically, I have shifted entirely away from HT prepros and Mch players in favor of a PC front end feeding a dedicated Mch DAC. Improved and more capable DSP EQ and other prepro functions are all in the PC, with very convenient playback control from my NAS-based music and video library via my iPad. Yet, this stuff was all relatively cheap compared to the high end gear I had been used to. The DAC is a slight exception at $4K, but that is far less expensive than the MSRP of the high end stereo DAC I had sold. The sound is, however, truly outstanding and a significant step forward sonically. But, significant and satisfying as these recent upgrades were, they were not as "huge" and eye opening, just evolutionary really, vs. my initial foray into Mch and DSP EQ.
No doubt my system - speakers, amps, etc. - could achieve a somewhat higher degree of ultimate sonic refinement. But, that will have to wait until I can afford to light my cigars with $100 bills, thank you. I think I have focused on what is to me the big and important sonic stuff, the really big, high value payback issues, with my approach. Speaker and/or amp upgrades can certainly improve things incrementally, but they just do not provide that magnitude of sonic improvement relative to where I am, in my experience - rapidly diminishing returns, you know.
That, and DSP EQ is an equalizer in more ways than one. It does not make everything sound the same, as some might believe. And, it definitely does not turn a crappy speaker into a good one. But, it can improve system frequency response linearity and impulse response in a way that makes all speakers perform closer to an ideal "voicing". That ideal is modifiable by the user to an extent via the target curve. And, in Mch, all speaker channels can be similarly voiced at the same time from the same target curve, regardless of room position, speaker size, etc.
Right now, I am hearing music that sounds better in the home than I had ever dreamed it could vs. my standard of the frequent live classical concert performances I attend. I have not heard a stereo at any price that would satisfy me as much, and I listen to quite a few exotic examples on an ongoing basis.
So, it is fair to say, I am no longer a true high ender. I will not be doing continuous upgrades for small "improvements", and I have zero regrets about that. I still look to the high end for better speakers, amps, etc. But, I think I am on a musically much more satisfying path, outside the box of where the traditional high end wants me to be. And, by comparison, it is on the cheap, relatively, for those who are similarly venturesome and willing to defy high end orthodoxy.
So, we just have to listen for ourselves and form our own judgements.
Over many decades, I have done countless equipment upgrades. They obviously provided an improvement or I would not have committed to them. The very, very biggest upgrade of them all by far was 8 years ago when I discovered three things at the same time: discretely recorded multichannel, DSP room EQ and hi rez audio. That was the only one of all my upgrades I could honestly describe as "huge". Mch and DSP EQ would be at the top of my list of transformative technologies. Hi rez digital is a worthwhile refinement over CD quality, but it belongs quite a bit further down my list.
In putting together my initial Mch system, I did learn quite a few other things about value and proportion in audio. My Mch prepro was relatively inexpensive compared to components in my stereo front end, as was the new Mch disc player. Yet, I was so smitten by the apparent realism of Mch music reproduction that I saw no point in holding onto some very nice, very expensive stereo components from the existing system. I had started the project assuming Mch was just going to be for video and movies, while I would continue to listen to CDs in stereo, as before. That changed, literally in seconds, on hearing my first Mch SACD, confirmed by many hours of listening after that.
So, I switched whole heartedly to Mch with Room EQ. The components involved were cheap compared to high end stereo gear, although my smaller center and surround speakers match my large mains and all are from a bona fide high end company. The economics, sales volumes and business models of Mch components, derived mainly from the HT marketplace, make them generally much less expensive compared to the low volume, boutiquey gear we know from the traditional audio high end. The upshot was I could resell my valuable, used stereo front end electronics to cover the cost of the Mch upgrade almost entirely. Yet, from a listening standpoint, I felt much, much more satisfied with Mch sound.
DSP EQ was an important side benefit of this, since the HT Mch market has embraced it, whereas most of the high end has not, to put it mildly. But, its contribution is also truly huge, and I am a lifetime convert to the technology.
I learned a number of other useful things during the upgrade through careful side-by-side audition in stereo with DSP EQ off. As if we already did not know, cables are way overpriced and overpraised for what they can actually contribute sonically. Some inexpensive cables I auditioned actually sounded slightly better than the pricey ones I had been using. Also, with a powered subwoofer now in the Mch system handling deep bass chores, hyper expensive amps honestly provided little if any sonic advantage over some carefully selected amps at reasonable prices.
I have carefully upgraded several things since that big epiphany. Most radically, I have shifted entirely away from HT prepros and Mch players in favor of a PC front end feeding a dedicated Mch DAC. Improved and more capable DSP EQ and other prepro functions are all in the PC, with very convenient playback control from my NAS-based music and video library via my iPad. Yet, this stuff was all relatively cheap compared to the high end gear I had been used to. The DAC is a slight exception at $4K, but that is far less expensive than the MSRP of the high end stereo DAC I had sold. The sound is, however, truly outstanding and a significant step forward sonically. But, significant and satisfying as these recent upgrades were, they were not as "huge" and eye opening, just evolutionary really, vs. my initial foray into Mch and DSP EQ.
No doubt my system - speakers, amps, etc. - could achieve a somewhat higher degree of ultimate sonic refinement. But, that will have to wait until I can afford to light my cigars with $100 bills, thank you. I think I have focused on what is to me the big and important sonic stuff, the really big, high value payback issues, with my approach. Speaker and/or amp upgrades can certainly improve things incrementally, but they just do not provide that magnitude of sonic improvement relative to where I am, in my experience - rapidly diminishing returns, you know.
That, and DSP EQ is an equalizer in more ways than one. It does not make everything sound the same, as some might believe. And, it definitely does not turn a crappy speaker into a good one. But, it can improve system frequency response linearity and impulse response in a way that makes all speakers perform closer to an ideal "voicing". That ideal is modifiable by the user to an extent via the target curve. And, in Mch, all speaker channels can be similarly voiced at the same time from the same target curve, regardless of room position, speaker size, etc.
Right now, I am hearing music that sounds better in the home than I had ever dreamed it could vs. my standard of the frequent live classical concert performances I attend. I have not heard a stereo at any price that would satisfy me as much, and I listen to quite a few exotic examples on an ongoing basis.
So, it is fair to say, I am no longer a true high ender. I will not be doing continuous upgrades for small "improvements", and I have zero regrets about that. I still look to the high end for better speakers, amps, etc. But, I think I am on a musically much more satisfying path, outside the box of where the traditional high end wants me to be. And, by comparison, it is on the cheap, relatively, for those who are similarly venturesome and willing to defy high end orthodoxy.
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