Herzan Active Platform on Critical Mass or Harmonic Resolution Shelf and Rack
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
M, I've got plans to consider the Speirs (although some feedback that it may not be suitable), Stacore and Minus K BM-8
If one of these ends up in my system, I'll certainly put thought into isolating tt-borne vibns w a Quantum Signature
Crazy really, dedicated rack, and two lots of passive isoln will amount to 2/3 of the capital cost of my tt/arm/cart/phono!
If one of these ends up in my system, I'll certainly put thought into isolating tt-borne vibns w a Quantum Signature
Crazy really, dedicated rack, and two lots of passive isoln will amount to 2/3 of the capital cost of my tt/arm/cart/phono!
The symposium is passive. Not sure is the minus k is passive. I did consider it but it is very tall and I ruled it out from the onstart. I am not familiar with stacore but am not sure of its performance against an active platform.
When I was considering active platforms they all.cost quite a bit and a few times more than the symposium solution. I have used symposium for more than 10.years and never thought of replacing them till I started.following this thread on active solutions. I still think the symposium to be the best value platform. The active holds the edge in absolute performance but at a much more significant cost. There may be other passive platforms that may work well but am not sure about how they stack up agst active. Passive also requires optimum payload loading. Given my upgrading habits I bit the bullet and bought the actives. Hope sharing my thoughts and consideration may help you with your decision.
When I was considering active platforms they all.cost quite a bit and a few times more than the symposium solution. I have used symposium for more than 10.years and never thought of replacing them till I started.following this thread on active solutions. I still think the symposium to be the best value platform. The active holds the edge in absolute performance but at a much more significant cost. There may be other passive platforms that may work well but am not sure about how they stack up agst active. Passive also requires optimum payload loading. Given my upgrading habits I bit the bullet and bought the actives. Hope sharing my thoughts and consideration may help you with your decision.
i was unfamiliar with the Minus K BM-8 platform until reading Marc's post #122. This level of vibration suppression is very impressive, especially for a passive device. Does anyone have familiarity with the BM-8 and what is the cost?
Really, the vertical frequency resonance is located at .5Hz and is much better controlled than in the Vibraplane (vertical resonance ~ 2 Hz). The transmission of the BM-8 at 4Hz is 1% - as far as I remember even better than the Herzan!
Marty, further to our comms, I'm going to investigate the 24" wide Minus K BM-1 v the Stacore Advanced
Certainly the Minus K is the one to beat re specs/data
I'm just concerned by it's fussiness re tt placement/weight distribution
Even at 24" wide, that's just enough to have my tt and phono immed next to each other (I run a 60cm phono lead), and this may be sub optimal w the Minus K
Certainly the Minus K is the one to beat re specs/data
I'm just concerned by it's fussiness re tt placement/weight distribution
Even at 24" wide, that's just enough to have my tt and phono immed next to each other (I run a 60cm phono lead), and this may be sub optimal w the Minus K
Just discovered that the UK distribr for Minus K are 5 miles up the road from me
Aiming to audition from them the WS-4, in effect 24" square BM-1 isoln platform on it's own steel frame stand, $5500/£4500
This will give me a pretty instant answer as to whether this level of isoln (good to 0.5Hz vertical and horizontal) is something I really need
Will post results
Aiming to audition from them the WS-4, in effect 24" square BM-1 isoln platform on it's own steel frame stand, $5500/£4500
This will give me a pretty instant answer as to whether this level of isoln (good to 0.5Hz vertical and horizontal) is something I really need
Will post results
sounds great...look forward to your thoughts. Of course, one question that may arise is...if the sound changes...is the platform revealing more of what your system really sounds like? Or is it changing the system's actual sound?
I would guess the former to be honest as it is isolation...but you may find it takes you down a path of further updates to get the overall presentation back to exactly where you want it. Enjoy!Lloyd, I'm 95% there tbh
Spending big on the space (no alternative with an 18x50 area, full acoustic insulation to in effect 3000 sq ft of flr and eaves, isolated power feed, balanced transformer and multiple dedicated lines), had resulted in an absolutely amazing sound, balanced, neutral, wide and deep imaging, expressive, clear and extended bass
I know you too have scored big w yr new room
But I know the one area I have that is inferior to London is the flr, having gone from inert concrete to suspended new timber on 1861 Victorian joists, and despite some addressing w bolstering, it will be prone to some flexing
If I have a shortcoming in my sound, it's some perceived dryness and tightness in upper mids and treble, meaning my top end lacks some sparkle, maybe a tad haziness in microdynamics
This is only apparent on analog, hence my wish to address poss smearing of things w isoln
Any change Lloyd, I'll really know if us an impvt or a character imposed by the platform
Put it this way, so many tweaks that I've introduced/kept from London have been shown to work, or not work, quite unambiguously, incl a change I was religiously converted by and is now shown to be deleterious
My room really is that revealing and truthful
And w Minus K just around the corner, and this WS-4 bring shelf and stand in one, the demo is just crying out to happen
So happy am I w my sound, this isoln is really my last area of major upgrade, save for diving into the pool of streaming some time in 2018
I'm truly so content w what I've achieved that planned spending on components I would have made in Lonfon is now unnecessary (and unaffordable, i am OUT of budget because of the room LOL)
My isoln options are this Minus K and the Stacore Advanced on Rogoz stand, in effect the same price at c£4500
Spending big on the space (no alternative with an 18x50 area, full acoustic insulation to in effect 3000 sq ft of flr and eaves, isolated power feed, balanced transformer and multiple dedicated lines), had resulted in an absolutely amazing sound, balanced, neutral, wide and deep imaging, expressive, clear and extended bass
I know you too have scored big w yr new room
But I know the one area I have that is inferior to London is the flr, having gone from inert concrete to suspended new timber on 1861 Victorian joists, and despite some addressing w bolstering, it will be prone to some flexing
If I have a shortcoming in my sound, it's some perceived dryness and tightness in upper mids and treble, meaning my top end lacks some sparkle, maybe a tad haziness in microdynamics
This is only apparent on analog, hence my wish to address poss smearing of things w isoln
Any change Lloyd, I'll really know if us an impvt or a character imposed by the platform
Put it this way, so many tweaks that I've introduced/kept from London have been shown to work, or not work, quite unambiguously, incl a change I was religiously converted by and is now shown to be deleterious
My room really is that revealing and truthful
And w Minus K just around the corner, and this WS-4 bring shelf and stand in one, the demo is just crying out to happen
So happy am I w my sound, this isoln is really my last area of major upgrade, save for diving into the pool of streaming some time in 2018
I'm truly so content w what I've achieved that planned spending on components I would have made in Lonfon is now unnecessary (and unaffordable, i am OUT of budget because of the room LOL)
My isoln options are this Minus K and the Stacore Advanced on Rogoz stand, in effect the same price at c£4500
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I own both of these--work as described--yes the only slight anomaly you may find is the weight distribution --the top platform will tend to "sway" to the side with the most downforce, this requires careful placement
Remember the units work at on or near the maximum weight specified ,so use some ballast to bring this "down" appropriately . I'did not like the TT directly on the metal top plate but used a Maple block placed first--then my GDR Mooks under the TT.
Adversely you may find this wood option alone,not enough to compensate for the additional weight required--I have used a heavy cut to size sheet of Silestone (NOT granite) under the Maple block to achieve this.
The table can be sand /shot filled ( it rings)--the Phenolic top can be unscrewed to gain access --or from the bottom feet with a funnel. If your local dealer is adept at setting up for you --not much to learn just keep the white dot centred on the adjustment level
Good luck with the Audition .
BruceD
Bruce, can you elaborate as fully as possible on the fussiness of the Minus K
Tbh, this is my main reservation of the product
W the Stacore Adv, Accurion/Halcyonics, Herzan, Speirs etc, there are no such considerations, they are "set up and good to go".
I have to site my 6"x3" phono directly adjacent to the tt since I only have a 60cm tonearm wire, and my tt like all tts is assymetrically weighted, and at 30kg it falls close to the minimum of the 24kg-45kg wt range
What do I need to be considering re position and pre loading?
Tbh, this is my main reservation of the product
W the Stacore Adv, Accurion/Halcyonics, Herzan, Speirs etc, there are no such considerations, they are "set up and good to go".
I have to site my 6"x3" phono directly adjacent to the tt since I only have a 60cm tonearm wire, and my tt like all tts is assymetrically weighted, and at 30kg it falls close to the minimum of the 24kg-45kg wt range
What do I need to be considering re position and pre loading?
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Well--as your dealer will probably be salivating at the thought of a £4/5K sale
I certainly do not want to spread false misleading terms of how I set mine up!--may lead to collision course with aforesaid dealerOK like I said I'd top up the WS-4 legs--Silica sand/Kitty litter/etc--pick ya poison there!--I added some #10 gauge lead shot(pure not the steel mix)-- I don't completely fill leave say 1/3rd top empty.
Get your weight requirements for your TT--ie. My MK was the 100ib version so I made sure with ballast as described previous to around 98ib with full house TT installed.
In my situ the Shindo 301 TT was single weighted--no external supply /Drive/etc --this ( external Units/etc) is probably the only time when careful placement to ensure even dispersion across the top plates is achieved.
When I had a TT( SimonYorke) with the sep Drive--I had to balance the top plate with Mapleshade Bras footers to offset the Power module of that particular TT--worked fine then.
When all assembled--use a level to make sure all stable and correct on all planes--simply adjust the built in adjustment in the MK--on the side --so the White dot is in sync with the Plimsol line!
Voila!
Good Listening
BruceD
PS Just perused your PM-- OK you can bring the weight as suggested above --no big deal--most MK Owners I know have had to do this as some stage. You want your Phono on the same platform?--unlikely at the current size of the Platforms --unless you order a Custom one
I bought my setup direct from MK--they will make to spec if you desire. I don't find the setup unnecessarily fussy, just need some careful nous to get the best for what they can do-- try it anyway --nix but some time to loose--no?:b
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Bruce, the people I'll be demoing from will likely have no experience setting up a tt on the K, so I can make any practical suggestions to help them
At 30kg for my tt, I'll have to ask them to supply 15-18kg of additional weighted slab
Re positioning, if most of the weight of my tt is on the rear foot/btwn rear foot-arm pod, are we looking at positioning this zone closer to actual centre point of the K, or if not, where exactly?
And w additional wt off the tt ie seperate motor pod and seperate phono, these may alter final positioning too?
The WS-4 is in effect a BM-1 on dedicated stand, 24" X 22"
I'm certainly hoping it allows us to be able to site 20" X 15" overall footprint tt together w 6" X 3" phono
If it doesn't then the K no go for me since I cannot site my phono on a seperate tier (tonearm lead 24")
At 30kg for my tt, I'll have to ask them to supply 15-18kg of additional weighted slab
Re positioning, if most of the weight of my tt is on the rear foot/btwn rear foot-arm pod, are we looking at positioning this zone closer to actual centre point of the K, or if not, where exactly?
And w additional wt off the tt ie seperate motor pod and seperate phono, these may alter final positioning too?
The WS-4 is in effect a BM-1 on dedicated stand, 24" X 22"
I'm certainly hoping it allows us to be able to site 20" X 15" overall footprint tt together w 6" X 3" phono
If it doesn't then the K no go for me since I cannot site my phono on a seperate tier (tonearm lead 24")
Well I cannot judge nor comment on your situation--you will have to see when all the items are in your presence--
Yes if your TT is too far off a Centre placement for levelling -then you will have to look elsewhere amongst the alternatives--but you cannot do that till you ascertain the fact in your own environment .
If you need bigger top area then leave out the WS-4 completely--its not mandatory to have with any of the Mks in Audioland usage and maybe look
at a one piece longer table so you place the Phono/ TT supply alongside the MK based TT--easy enough to build up the base of the outboards--Townsend seismic sinks with some footers /etc?
So your dealer has no idea on setting up the items/etc!--basically you are paying him his premium just to be a Box opener?
--sheesh!--if it was me I'd buy direct from the factory and figure it out for my self --there is nix to go wrong all passive parts.
Anyway your choice
Good luck
BruceD
Sure Bruce, I could run a 20" BM-8 on a 25" rack and have phono to side off the MK
We have no real aftermkt specialist isoln mkt for tts in UK, so these guys are mainly lab-only orientated
I have MK factory-direct prices for comparison
So, w my tt being overall footprint 18"x15" w weight max at rear centrally-situated foot, and a few inches to the side of this rear foot is my seperate rim-drive motor pod, can you see any issues on a 20"x18" BM-8 platform?
And just yr thoughts on preloading w another 15kg to take up to max loading of the BM-8?
We have no real aftermkt specialist isoln mkt for tts in UK, so these guys are mainly lab-only orientated
I have MK factory-direct prices for comparison
So, w my tt being overall footprint 18"x15" w weight max at rear centrally-situated foot, and a few inches to the side of this rear foot is my seperate rim-drive motor pod, can you see any issues on a 20"x18" BM-8 platform?
And just yr thoughts on preloading w another 15kg to take up to max loading of the BM-8?
Ok when you have all in situ only then can you decide if it works or not
In the meantime --if you don't wish to outlay ££££'s on a Silestone slab/etc--just get some Barbell weights from a mate or loner from the local gym or Dive belt weights( I did this!)
and spread evenly on the Top platform to get the 15KG required --remember using level to set all planes---then position the TT and Drive--trusting all it fits!
Someone on another Post asked about the unit going off level --haven't found that fact ,but the whole shebang will tend to "settle" over time
--and before that stabilises check the Level Dot on the side occasionally as it may need the odd turn up periodically in the beginning .
Just a factor if you cannot "fit all" the top plate lifts OFF--it is not bolted/connected to the Chassis --only by slightly adhesive removable pads--MK could supply larger top plate--I'm sure an inch or so extra side width would not upset the base--anyway just thinking--ha!:b
Good luck
BD
Bruce, I'm going to have the MK BM-8 a/b'd v the Herzan TS-150
MK will be preloaded w a 15kg top plate to get to max of wt range
Will test both platforms direct on the floor
MK will be preloaded w a 15kg top plate to get to max of wt range
Will test both platforms direct on the floor
Good luck S---! just a thought
As I mentioned the top MK plate lifts OFF--- you could actually have a Kitchen maker supply a slightly larger Silestone piece with weight to match if you needed extra width /etc
it will jus sit as the supplied top --on the adhesive pads--one factor also is the elimination of the metal top plate--which I found( personal only here!) rang slightly and the TT sounded better
on a Maple or Silstone Block rather than direct on the MK Plate
YVMV--and again best for the Demo
I actually like both the Herzan and MKs so its a win win situ!--except for your wallet--ha!
Best,
BruceD
I hope it is okay to pass along a Critical Mass Systems review just published on Positive-Feedback.com. The rack and amp stand combination David evaluated is the same combination Steve has in his room on a smaller scale. Like Steve, the front end and amps are on a Black Diamond MK III. The balance of the signal processing components are on Black Platinum MK III and the power conditioner on a Black Sapphire MK III. The components are very different…………
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-...iii-rack-system-and-black-diamond-amp-stands/
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-...iii-rack-system-and-black-diamond-amp-stands/
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
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