Highend Louspeakers, what is the right way in Low Bass?

[jpetek]

I am talking about real deep bass between 15 and 70 Hz. I think the best way to reproduce is with a special bass ampflifier and NOT through a passive construction. I passive construction has never the control and clearness of a active solution.

What do you think?

Josef

 

[JackD201]

I've heard many fully passive big speakers that do great bass. That said, my present and my future big rig speakers incorporate active subwoofers. The advantage in my experience is flexibility. I've used my speakers in a small room and in a large one. I would have had a much more difficult time without electronic control of the deep bass.

 

[jpetek]

subwoofer are normaly activ. This is what I mean. The most people make a mistake if they are listing to Loudspeakers (I think you not).

What they heard is a bass around 40 Hz. This has nothing to do with real deep bass. The most Loudspeaker are not able to do a bass lower than 40 Hz with a high output. I do not know any passive Loudspeaker which goes down with a high output to 20 Hz.. Even not a Magico Q7. (-3 db or more spl < 95 db)

 

[asiufy]

The Q7 does.
I heard one of those "church organ spectaculars", and the Q7 was able to hit those low notes, that I could hear (and feel) from across the room (about 10 meters across).
So, no, I don't think you NEED active amping to get that sort of bass, but you might WANT TO, or more apropriately, if the speaker designer thinks it'll guarantee an improvement.
I don't have a prejudice either way, but from reading this forum, I get the impression that, if you're going to go active, do it with strategically placed subwoofers, that'll help cancelling the room modes.


alexandre

 

[jpetek]

the best solution is to work with a bass array (3-4 suboofer in the corner). the problem is to synchronize the woofers. the second best way is to use a active bass and then to use a normal passive construction like gryphon or vonschweikert ... for my opinion the third best way is to use passive

 

[LL21]

Perhaps one other twist is where the speaker designer has actually created the separate passive and active units in a 4-tower configuration...Tidal, Gryphon, Genesis, Marten Coltrane, Evolution and (in a way) Wilson XLF + Thor. This way, the deep bass modules are separate, but designed as an integrated whole with the main speaker. I have even heard the CLX + Descent subs with the settings specifically for the link to CLX, and it was impressive.

Thus, one gets the benefit of active bass plus passive (smaller Genesis, Gryphons, VS) where one designer ensured everything is a fully integrated design (power, crossover, impedance matching, etc)...but also with the benefit of separate bass modules for optimal room placement (and also to avoid vibrational issues).

 

[KlausR.]

I do not know any passive Loudspeaker which goes down with a high output to 20 Hz.

Here's one: Klein + Hummel O900



Maximum SPL at 1 m:






Klaus

 

[jpetek]

Looks like a passive Subwoofer????

If yes, this is not what i mean. I mean a Fullrange Loudspeaker

 

[KlausR.]

Looks like a passive Subwoofer????

If yes, this is not what i mean. I mean a Fullrange Loudspeaker

Yes, that's a passive sub. To get a fullrange system, you'd have to add the (active) O500C:



Klaus

 

[jpetek]

ok, seems to me youre right. These are studio monitors.

 

[jpetek]

Ok the second one if you add a Thors Hammer to a Wilson XLF or Alexandria 2.

 

[LL21]

Ok the second one if you add a Thors Hammer to a Wilson XLF or Alexandria 2.

I would love to compare XLF + Thors with a lot of the big 4-tower/Tower + sub Players: Gryphon Pendragon, Genesis 1.2/Dragon, Tidal Sunray + tower subs, Evolution Audio MM7, Marten Coltrane, MBL Extremes, Avant Garde Horns + Avant Garde sub, Cessaro Beta + subs, Kharma Exquisite Grandes + subs, etc

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont have much expirience with subs , my gut feeling says i would go with the Evolution Acoustics mm7 aproach .
multiple large drivers stacked in towerformation ,giving bass coming towards you as a ``soundwall``

 

[JackD201]

I'm partial to having "flown" subs so towers work for me. If you ask me, there's nothing like having a sub(s) six feet off the ground along with those below. I believe Amir has a flown sub or two in their showroom as well. Talk about even bass everywhere. Give me a tower however and I would definitely want the option to control each driver's phase and amplitude so I can experiment with shading. I'm such a geek.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I m sure it will be an advantage to adjust such a large bass output to the room /space accordingly .
At the moment ive got also a price offer running on a complete HPL design , a tower speaker with one 13 inch bass speaker mounted at 550 mm center of the ground and one 11 inch 1205 mm center of the ground ,both side mounted though more or less due to praticality and visuality
I hope that will materialize .

ps the reason it takes so long is that i now realize why companies take the construction in their own hands

 

[andromedaaudio]

regarding activesubs.
No i would want my tube power amp to be able to drive the subs as well , i would make a passive tower sub with high effiiency/high impedance [matched to the mainsystem off course],which you could then just plug in at the back of the amp as well
Controlling the bass output by switching one or more subdrivers off in smaller rooms ,second option could be by resistorcontrol
If for any reason the 8 watt tubes wouldnt fully control the tower [what i dont think ] , i would biamp with a Boulder 1060 or drive the whole system on a Boulder which i liked a lot

 

[egidius]

subwoofer are normaly activ. This is what I mean. The most people make a mistake if they are listing to Loudspeakers (I think you not).

What they heard is a bass around 40 Hz. This has nothing to do with real deep bass. The most Loudspeaker are not able to do a bass lower than 40 Hz with a high output. I do not know any passive Loudspeaker which goes down with a high output to 20 Hz.. Even not a Magico Q7. (-3 db or more spl < 95 db)

I agree. At home I use Merlin VSM MXM speakers. They are good for what they are.
In my studio I use a custom made Stella Opus/Novus system, the latter being an exquisite bass managment system (if you dare not say sub..), that goes down to 10Hz and has a few ways to confuse you, whilst installing the thing ;-)

I like both ways: At home I do not need more, and if I want to, I just go to my music room.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi


I am a fan of subs. Best bass = Subs. We may debate and for a long time ...At the end of the day, best bass = subs and best over all sound= subs too ...

A powerful, stable amplifier is all that is needed in the bass, matched of course to the driver. No need for mega-dollars amp on a sub. Class D amps are royal down there.

And that regardless of the speakers bass capabilities ... Now ... having said this, I am not sure I would add subs to a Genesis Dragon

 

[GaryProtein]

. . . . I am not sure I would add subs to a Genesis Dragon

I don't think the Genesis Dragon needs subs either. There are 12--12" woofers per channel with pretty high excursion and a few kilowatts driving each bass channel.

"Deep bass" notes in music is in the range of 30-40 Hz but there is significant sound in the 15 Hz range which is mostly percussive impacts-like the strike on the tympani or a kick drum for a couple of cycles-NOT the actual note of the drum sound. Of course there are other tones like the deepest organ notes that are 15 Hz.

 

[LL21]

I don't think the Genesis Dragon needs subs either. There are 12--12" woofers per channel with pretty high excursion and a few kilowatts driving each bass channel.

"Deep bass" notes in music is in the range of 30-40 Hz but there is significant sound in the 15 Hz range which is mostly percussive impacts-like the strike on the tympani or a kick drum for a couple of cycles-NOT the actual note of the drum sound. Of course there are other tones like the deepest organ notes that are 15 Hz.

I agree with your sentiments and FrantzM's as well...my [relatively] little Velodyne DD18 makes an enormously positive impact on my system's overall performance. I would not give it up...I have had a sub in my system for 20 years now...and currently it is totally cut off above 40hz. (48db slope). And it makes a big difference...I can only imagine what happens when you perfectly dial in a pair of Thors, or have ginormous speakers like Arrakis, Genesis 1s, your Infinitys, Gryphon Pendragons, or the other ultra-heavyweight boys I've mentioned in this thread...