Highend Louspeakers, what is the right way in Low Bass?

[FrantzM]

I agree with your sentiments and FrantzM's as well...my [relatively] little Velodyne DD18 makes an enormously positive impact on my system's overall performance. I would not give it up...I have had a sub in my system for 20 years now...and currently it is totally cut off above 40hz. (48db slope). And it makes a big difference...I can only imagine what happens when you perfectly dial in a pair of Thors, or have ginormous speakers like Arrakis, Genesis 1s, your Infinitys, Gryphon Pendragons, or the other ultra-heavyweight boys I've mentioned in this thread...

The thing remains however that the best position for thebass transducers in the room rarely coincide with that of the mains. Physics, more precisely small room acoustics has to do with that. One needs several separated subs. THe sheer bass capbilities of speakers like the Infinity, Dragon and few others with seaprated sub towers, help them a lot. They could benefit from additional Low Frequencies transducers aka subwoofers in the room.

I am partial to relieving the main amp from LF duties, only partial. Some very high end speakers help in this regard, not all. I don't know about the Gryphon , I know the big speakers (1,2 etc) from Genesis, in fact up to the 5.3 (Gary will correct me if I am wrong) take that route and so do the Infinity Reference, Arrakis Active, etc. I think the VS VR11 and VR9 are also of that School and maybe the Gryphon. I don't think the MM7 has the same topology. The Evo MM7 mains are capable, full range speakers although they are "helped" by the Bass towers but the Mains are full range speakers ...
One of my favorite speakers the Magico Q7 (I also loveits smaller siblings: !5 and Q3) are full range.. The Q7 is as full range as any speaker around and in fact go lower than many speakers reputed to be full range, IME they would benefit from several subs strategically placed in the room. AND in their case the amps are not relieved from low bass duties... While they sounded great without subs, energizing a huge room with bass of the kind only surpassed by speakers like the Genesis 1 (or Dragon) it remains my feeling that subs would have brought the last level of bass perfection.

We, audiophiles are very particular and we tend to believe that a particular brand of speakers will work better with teir similarly branded subs .. Nothing is further from the truth. There are many great subs out there and many could be said to surpass what is offered by Audiophile-branded subs and that a lesser cost. A flexible crossover (can be so dirt cheap as to be laughable, e.g Behringer at around $300) Flexible EQ (Same Behringer can do that job too ) and flexible delay (Uh!... Same Behringer. Do you see a trend here ) are what is needed to achieve great integration with mains and of course truckload of patience, willingness to learn, good knowledge of available for free tools (REW, there are others) and a few measurements tools, actually one would be enough a decent well calibrated microphone for less than $200 and an open mind will bring many systems to that ethereal level ... Good bass integration is possible and not that expensive in term of paid price. The results are in my opinion well worth it.

LL, It would be interesting to add one more DD18 to your system. The increase in bass quality I am willing to bet will be noticeable. Audiophiles tend to think of subs as adding in bass quantity... It is of course more likely that a system will reproduce more bass with more subs but the real improvement is in Quality of Bass and surprisingly in overall sound quality .. better , cleaner bass usually equal cleaner more faithful reproduction.

 

[LL21]

The thing remains however that the best position for thebass transducers in the room rarely coincide with that of the mains. Physics, more precisely small room acoustics has to do with that. One needs several separated subs. THe sheer bass capbilities of speakers like the Infinity, Dragon and few others with seaprated sub towers, help them a lot. They could benefit from additional Low Frequencies transducers aka subwoofers in the room.

...One of my favorite speakers the Magico Q7 (I also loveits smaller siblings: !5 and Q3) are full range.. The Q7 is as full range as any speaker around and in fact go lower than many speakers reputed to be full range, IME they would benefit from several subs strategically placed in the room. AND in their case the amps are not relieved from low bass duties... While they sounded great without subs, energizing a huge room with bass of the kind only surpassed by speakers like the Genesis 1 (or Dragon) it remains my feeling that subs would have brought the last level of bass perfection.

...LL, It would be interesting to add one more DD18 to your system. The increase in bass quality I am willing to bet will be noticeable. Audiophiles tend to think of subs as adding in bass quantity... It is of course more likely that a system will reproduce more bass with more subs but the real improvement is in Quality of Bass and surprisingly in overall sound quality .. better , cleaner bass usually equal cleaner more faithful reproduction.

Thanks for that...agree with everything you mentioned on multiple subs. I too would love to hear the Q7 with great subs...talk about all-out assault. I would love to do 2 or more subs in our living room...but practical matters of space come into play. I would love to even out the bass response which I know is uneven, plus I've got a node that rears its ugly head in certain areas within the room. Fortunately, it is not terrible even though I know its there, and generally gets 'invasive' on a small sampling of my collection. its at around 30hz.

In another room, I definitely will aim for a 2nd. And I also have heard getting a second DD18 would be of far more benefit than trading in my 1 DD18 and trying to upgrade to something bigger/badder like a single Gotham or something else.

 

[FrantzM]

LL

I don't know your room. I am thinking that if it is not for aesthetics, if you can accommodate one Sub you can put two ... There is that firmly held notion in our circles of "overloading ' a room... If one subs doesn't two will not .. I know it is an oversimplification. What you gain with two subs is headroom, linearity and a lot more. In the bass two separated LF transducers ofer you the possibility to smooth the response and reduce distortion, since the drivers are more likely to work within their linear range. Symmetry is not your best friend there but we audiophiles swear by absolute symmetry, so leave it symmetric if you want to but experiment with a certain degree of non-symmetry .. We can't, hear the location of bass under 50 Hz .. Most people can't when it's under 100 Hz .. I was very reluctant but recently put a sub in the back of a room for a friend with incredible results. I have much to say about the highest end speakers and bass . It will be for another time. Today is NFL day so I will be watching games after games , I will even turn on the TV and enjoy (not listen to) the incessant nonsense of ESPN and Networks Pregame shows

 

[LL21]

LL

I don't know your room. I am thinking that if it is not for aesthetics, if you can accommodate one Sub you can put two ... There is that firmly held notion in our circles of "overloading ' a room... If one subs doesn't two will not .. I know it is an oversimplification. What you gain with two subs is headroom, linearity and a lot more. In the bass two separated LF transducers ofer you the possibility to smooth the response and reduce distortion, since the drivers are more likely to work within their linear range. Symmetry is not your best friend there but we audiophiles swear by absolute symmetry, so leave it symmetric if you want to but experiment with a certain degree of non-symmetry .. We can't, hear the location of bass under 50 Hz .. Most people can't when it's under 100 Hz .. I was very reluctant but recently put a sub in the back of a room for a friend with incredible results. I have much to say about the highest end speakers and bass . It will be for another time. Today is NFL day so I will be watching games after games , I will even turn on the TV and enjoy (not listen to) the incessant nonsense of ESPN and Networks Pregame shows

You are absolutely right...I could sandwich a sub in if I wanted to...but its also our living room, and wife is exceedingly understanding. But that is not a free license to turn the place into even more of a sound studio. She already knows whats coming when we move and have the room.

I will likely start posting whenever that day comes...and hopefully you will be there to provide me with some guidance.

 

[JackD201]

LL21,

Lloyd, is that you? Did you get a username change?

 

[trueblue]

Roy Gregorys review of the Gryphon Trident is addressing the subject og bass quantity versus quality and the benefits of a active bass system with remote controlled features. http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/gryphon_trident.htm

 

[microstrip]

(...) We, audiophiles are very particular and we tend to believe that a particular brand of speakers will work better with teir similarly branded subs .. Nothing is further from the truth. There are many great subs out there and many could be said to surpass what is offered by Audiophile-branded subs and that a lesser cost. A flexible crossover (can be so dirt cheap as to be laughable, e.g Behringer at around $300) Flexible EQ (Same Behringer can do that job too ) and flexible delay (Uh!... Same Behringer. Do you see a trend here ) are what is needed to achieve great integration with mains and of course truckload of patience, willingness to learn, good knowledge of available for free tools (REW, there are others) and a few measurements tools, actually one would be enough a decent well calibrated microphone for less than $200 and an open mind will bring many systems to that ethereal level ... Good bass integration is possible and not that expensive in term of paid price. The results are in my opinion well worth it.

(...)

Happily, we, audiophiles are realistic people and acknowledge that for most of the audiophile population this task transcends our capacities. Using REW and setting a Behringer crossover is not a weekend task.

My only experience with good subs in my room was with a Wilson Watchdog + Wilson Puppy 7's - never tried subs going down to 10 Hz. The Watchdog had a nice crossover with some limited EQ. Perhaps it was not the best bass in the world, but after a few experiments I got a decent integration and enjoyed it for several years. Recently I got a Behringer DCX2496 crossover to build an active sub system. Since then I have spent more time just trying to connect its output RS232 port to my computer than setting up the Wilson system. Little time after I got it right the old computer died and I found that the replacement did not have RS232 ports . Now the damned USB/RS232 adapter that should solve the problem is not working properly with XP...

I would love to see the reaction of the typical audiophile without technical looking at the setup instructions of the Behringer, as I have already read the reactions of most non initiated to REW . And we still have not talked about interpretation of results!

IMHO there is a large difference between dreams and real implementation.

 

[FrantzM]

Happily, we, audiophiles are realistic people and acknowledge that for most of the audiophile population this task transcends our capacities. Using REW and setting a Behringer crossover is not a weekend task.

My only experience with good subs in my room was with a Wilson Watchdog + Wilson Puppy 7's - never tried subs going down to 10 Hz. The Watchdog had a nice crossover with some limited EQ. Perhaps it was not the best bass in the world, but after a few experiments I got a decent integration and enjoyed it for several years. Recently I got a Behringer DCX2496 crossover to build an active sub system. Since then I have spent more time just trying to connect its output RS232 port to my computer than setting up the Wilson system. Little time after I got it right the old computer died and I found that the replacement did not have RS232 ports . Now the damned USB/RS232 adapter that should solve the problem is not working properly with XP...

I would love to see the reaction of the typical audiophile without technical looking at the setup instructions of the Behringer, as I have already read the reactions of most non initiated to REW . And we still have not talked about interpretation of results!

IMHO there is a large difference between dreams and real implementation.

microstrip

How long has it taken you to get the best from your turntables? How long does it takes the "typical" audiophile to properly set-up his/her TTs? How long does it take the "typical" audiophiles to learn about tubes and then roll them and then bias them properly in his/her system? How long does it the "typical" audiophile takes to listen carefully as to match components, something I know very dear to you? How long does it take the "Typical" audiophile to learn how to correctly position speakers? ...
I am willing to bet much more than one lone week end.

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

How long has it taken you to get the best from your turntables? How long does it takes the "typical" audiophile to properly set-up his/her TTs? How long does it take the "typical" audiophiles to learn about tubes and then roll them and then bias them properly in his/her system? How long does it the "typical" audiophile takes to listen carefully as to match components, something I know very dear to you? How long does it take the "Typical" audiophile to learn how to correctly position speakers? ...
I am willing to bet much more than one lone week end.

Frantz,

You are presenting situations that are not comparable and most of all, asking me specifically. I have a technical background - I can not consider myself a typical case, as I can set a SME turntable in less than one hour and my professional life is built around instrumentation.

We can not compare the activities you refer to using REW or setting the Behringer based multi woofer system. I am not debating only time, but also expertise. Also many people spend long time in the activities you describe because they have pleasure (not exactly the same as listening music ) and interest in it , but have not the minimum interest in spending long hours learning how to use and setup PC based instruments. You can ask friends to listen to your system and exchange opinions on it, I doubt they will come to comment on REW screens. BTW, what features of REW do you advise to use to setup bass in a room?

IMHO, unless you have a self calibrating system, such as the JBL system Amir described in WBF sometime ago, or professional help, the approach you describe is not feasible to the majority of the audiophiles. Excellent for a few enthusiasts, such as you and me, but only that.

People have now our opinions, it would be great to have our bass experts opinion on this issue.