hORNS universum videos

[bonzo75]

Composite or wooden both have a sound and should be taken into account in the design. If I was DIYing, with my current planned crossover at around 500 Hz, the autotech JMLC, a wooden replica possibly turned by Bill, and a wooden multi cell by Markus klug would all be worth trying, the latter will enable a two way better than JMLC but will require more space from the side walls.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Graham,

Some interesting comments. Personally I think the life and vitality you refer to “in the composite” horns is not due to the composite horn material but the drivers. The 2 prominent composite horn vids are Uni and Cessaro both employing Be CDs (Radian and TAD) respectively. The Anima is a *very* different mid driver using paper cone and in and of itself radically different sounding.

Ime ymmv etc - composite horns add a *deleterious* plastic signature onto everything that is usually obviously heard. Ones ears can filter this out after a period of time but it is always there. This was one of the main reasons for me going to the trouble of my chosen path. I think some people are less susceptible to the plastic addition - it bothers me a lot and I wondered why. It is probably that I spent so much of my life listening (and playing) to classical instruments and you get acutely aware of it. As a brass player (myself) you have to learn to listen carefully to your tone and improve it over time with changes to your embouchure and / or breathing control.

In order to make this more objective, one just needs to do the correct test of same driver in same horn geometry with wood or composite and see. I spent several months doing this with a few full range drivers (AER, Stamm, Lowther and Voxativ). The test remains for me to repeat on the Be CDs - I am doing this very soon.

One final comment is that ideally the resonance of the horn itself is out of the frequency response range for that horn channel - i.e below the fc of the horn. To achieve this, *mass* and rigidity are essential. Thin body horns resonate and add their own distortion to the musical content. I tested this with vibration apps. The big mid bass horns are really tricky to stop this happening. That said it is possible to enjoy the additional resonance added to the signal.

Many thanks for this perspective Bill. My main experience is with wood horns and I do connect with these easily. The flow with wood is the quality that I have most related to.

The Unis and Cessaros and Kodomos own horns have all struck me as a different way to go so it’s great to get your thoughts on this approach.

I am thinking I’ll consider a larger more complex horn build eventually to add to what I already have and so choice of horn material is fundamental to that. I suppose that is also why I’m subscribed to what others are doing here.

The draw to diy horns is clear and I’m only at an early stage of researching and determining which direction to go and trying to gauge what experiences are created by the various types of materials. I am looking forward to hearing more on what you are doing.

I’ll move forward with the subs project first as that is something that is under way but the call to build something else again with another set of horns is forming up inside. But I do get what you are saying about the rigidity of the horn. Birch horns in the Anima and also in my Pap horn have been the horns that I have lived with and loved most so far.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Composite or wooden both have a sound and should be taken into account in the design. If I was DIYing, with my current planned crossover at around 500 Hz, the autotech JMLC, a wooden replica possibly turned by Bill, and a wooden multi cell by Markus klug would all be worth trying, the latter will enable a two way better than JMLC but will require more space from the side walls.

I could use my existing paps as a test bed as they are essentially modular and swap out the pap iwata horn and try in either a coaxial CD or even a mid horn with a separate tweeter... maybe the fostex. I think when I’ve added the OB sub that’s perhaps the time to then explore some other horn configurations played out in between the two 15 inch Pap woofers.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Many thanks for this perspective Bill. My main experience is with wood horns and I do connect with these easily. The flow with wood is the quality that I have most related to.

The Unis and Cessaros and Kodomos own horns have all struck me as a different way to go so it’s great to get your thoughts on this approach.

I am thinking I’ll consider a larger more complex horn build eventually to add to what I already have and so choice of horn material is fundamental to that. I suppose that is also why I’m subscribed to what others are doing here.

The draw to diy horns is clear and I’m only at an early stage of researching and determining which direction to go and trying to gauge what experiences are created by the various types of materials. I am looking forward to hearing more on what you are doing.

I’ll move forward with the subs project first as that is something that is under way but the call to build something else again with another set of horns is forming up inside. But I do get what you are saying about the rigidity of the horn. Birch horns in the Anima and also in my Pap horn have been the horns that I have lived with and loved most so far.

Hi Graham,

I have the same itch about the multi-way horn that I have started to scratch. 5-ways but in wood the whole way - this is clearly a big project and a lot of work but I am making good progress. Personally the multi-way horn system is imho the ultimate solution but also the easiest to cock up big time - I think it requires dedication, time and skill to get right. DSP based crossovers have made the *Objective* promise the fix this issue but I haven’t heard a pure dsp multi-way that doesn’t lose out somewhere. I think a hybrid dsp solution has much more chance and one I think can work as I have tried it a lot. There are some significant advantages (on paper) to FIR based crossover filters and a means to correct badly behaved bass in normal rooms. I am working on this right now as an alternative solution for non-purists.

Uni, Cessaro and Kodomo’s all share one thing in common - compression drivers with Be diaphragms. Uni and Kodomo both using Radian Be (amongst others since Kodomo’s is a more complex system with 5 channels I believe). Cessaros using TAD Beryllium.

Personally I think the Radians are a kind of no brainer driver due to very favourable price: performance ratio. TADs are obviously known to be king of the hill in the beryllium world but much more expensive. I think Kodomo tried TAD but stuck with Radian. I think the recent uni videos show a speaker with well integrated drivers and plenty of fidelity and insight. I think the choice of JMLC mid and Radian makes an awful lot of sense. The new reference uni 4 way coming out soon will be interesting because that will go much lower than the normal uni and has a full front firing mid bass horn so much less compromised. In terms of Cessaro - I have only heard them at shows where, being honest with you, I shrugged my shoulders as they always sounded poor. A show is a show though and I am sure like with everything else, they can be made to sound good in the right hands. I have enjoyed Tang’s journey and think his latest videos have got really good with the sub integration sorted. The Bruckner one especially sounded great.

In terms of horns voicing , my personal taste is more bottom up than top down. I prefer a big weighty mid bass anchor. I also have a serious soft spot for quite a lot of the vintage horns and their drivers.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I could use my existing paps as a test bed as they are essentially modular and swap out the pap iwata horn and try in either a coaxial CD or even a mid horn with a separate tweeter... maybe the fostex. I think when I’ve added the OB sub that’s perhaps the time to then explore some other horn configurations played out in between the two 15 inch Pap woofers.

Graham - have you thought about using a coax CD or CD + tweeter horn but with the PAP woofers driven actively? Doing this will mean you don’t need to pad down your CD by such a humongous amount since the PAP woofers are probably 96dB at best.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham - have you thought about using a coax CD or CD + tweeter horn but with the PAP woofers driven actively? Doing this will mean you don’t need to pad down your CD by such a humongous amount since the PAP woofers are probably 96dB at best.

That was what I was thinking Bill... I have two LM SET amps now so I can utilise both and also a 500 watt Magtech I can configure for the OB subs. But going active also allows me to then go for a 45 or type 50 valve amp for the horn.

 

[bonzo75]

Both kodomo and uni apart from using Radian are both using autotech horns.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Graham,

I have the same itch about the multi-way horn that I have started to scratch. 5-ways but in wood the whole way - this is clearly a big project and a lot of work but I am making good progress. Personally the multi-way horn system is imho the ultimate solution but also the easiest to cock up big time - I think it requires dedication, time and skill to get right. DSP based crossovers have made the *Objective* promise the fix this issue but I haven’t heard a pure dsp multi-way that doesn’t lose out somewhere. I think a hybrid dsp solution has much more chance and one I think can work as I have tried it a lot. There are some significant advantages (on paper) to FIR based crossover filters and a means to correct badly behaved bass in normal rooms. I am working on this right now as an alternative solution for non-purists.

Uni, Cessaro and Kodomo’s all share one thing in common - compression drivers with Be diaphragms. Uni and Kodomo both using Radian Be (amongst others since Kodomo’s is a more complex system with 5 channels I believe). Cessaros using TAD Beryllium.

Personally I think the Radians are a kind of no brainer driver due to very favourable price: performance ratio. TADs are obviously known to be king of the hill in the beryllium world but much more expensive. I think Kodomo tried TAD but stuck with Radian. I think the recent uni videos show a speaker with well integrated drivers and plenty of fidelity and insight. I think the choice of JMLC mid and Radian makes an awful lot of sense. The new reference uni 4 way coming out soon will be interesting because that will go much lower than the normal uni and has a full front firing mid bass horn so much less compromised. In terms of Cessaro - I have only heard them at shows where, being honest with you, I shrugged my shoulders as they always sounded poor. A show is a show though and I am sure like with everything else, they can be made to sound good in the right hands. I have enjoyed Tang’s journey and think his latest videos have got really good with the sub integration sorted. The Bruckner one especially sounded great.

In terms of horns voicing , my personal taste is more bottom up than top down. I prefer a big weighty mid bass anchor. I also have a serious soft spot for quite a lot of the vintage horns and their drivers.

Bottom up is the approach I have been working towards... the dual 15 inch Pap woofers supplemented by an OB sub will tie that down I figure. The mid bass and up to the tops then floating in on top of a good bass foundation just brings the rightness/sweetness of light. Working with panels like the maggies the tendency to a slight mid bass leaness always left the music a bit vulnerable to tipping to brightness and highlighting. The rich foundations of bass and mid bass carry the music better for me as well.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

That was what I was thinking Bill... I have two LM SET amps now so I can utilise both and also a 500 watt Magtech I can configure for the OB subs. But going active also allows me to then go for a 45 or type 50 valve amp for the horn.

Exactly what I would have suggested too. I think you’ll get a nice uptick. The new sub you are getting can be active too.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bottom up is the approach I have been working towards... the dual 15 inch woofers supplemented by an OB sub will tie that down I figure. The mid bass and up to the tops then floating in on top of a good bass foundation just brings the rightness of light. Working with panels the tendency to a slight mid bass leaness always left the music a bit vulnerable to brightness and highlighting. The rich foundations of bass and mid bass carry the music better for me as well.

Yes those new subs you are developing will defo help. Also if the mid bass woofers are now driven actively, you can effectively control very easily how much juice you give them and tailor how much heft you want.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

A bit of horn porn if you like JMLC mids - this is from the Sierra audio guys in my preferred mahogany:

 

[the sound of Tao]

On reflection getting the subs working frees me up to explore the rest. The potential to go active gives a lot of additional control. I traditionally like simple as I’m a bit coherency sensitive... when trying Wilson Benesch subs on the maggie 20.7s I had monster Manley EL34 monos for the panels and I found the mosfet amp for the Torus sub integrated really well with the valves driving up top. I do have the option to go for a mosfet amp to do sub duties as well.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

On reflection getting the subs working frees me up to explore the rest. The potential to go active gives a lot of additional control. I traditionally like simple as I’m a bit coherency sensitive... when trying Wilson Benesch subs on the maggie 20.7s I had monster Manley EL34 monos for the panels and I found the mosfet amp for the Torus sub integrated really well with the valves driving up top. I do have the option to go for a mosfet amp to do sub duties as well.

I use Mosfet on my active bass right now

 

[bonzo75]

A bit of horn porn if you like JMLC mids - this is from the Sierra audio guys in my preferred mahogany:

View attachment 68672

I have heard his videos and don't find them better than uni or Anima videos. That said he changes drivers with each horn and also multi amps. Difficult to hear as he is in Philippines. The other two I know very well

 

[Audiophile Bill]

One last comment because I am acutely aware this is meant to be a Uni thread. All woods sound different and quite dramatically so. If you wanted a very dynamic and hard hitting type presentation without plastic, maple is a great material. Unfortunately it isn’t easy to be able to know what different woods sounds like as a DIYer unless you have ability to make loads of samples and choose. Ebony would make a wonderful horn but cost the earth to do lol.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I have heard his videos and don't find them better than uni or Anima videos. That said he changes drivers with each horn and also multi amps. Difficult to hear as he is in Philippines. The other two I know very well

Each speaker is effectively bespoke so as you say any compare is impossible. The purpose of the post was to show a JMLC horn that won’t sound of plastic though rather than to claim anything about the overall horn.

 

[bonzo75]

Each speaker is effectively bespoke so as you say any compare is impossible. The purpose of the post was to show a JMLC horn that won’t sound of plastic though rather than to claim anything about the overall horn.

I have heard across videos. I have to find an impressive one. They are good, just not liking them as much. I will take uni or Anima over them

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I have heard across videos. I have to find an impressive one. They are good, just not liking them as much. I will take uni or Anima over them

You are missing the point - I am talking about plastic horns. I am not talking about whether I like them or not.

 

[christoph]

The new reference uni 4 way coming out soon will be interesting because that will go much lower than the normal uni and has a full front firing mid bass horn so much less compromised

Hi Bill
Now that sounds very interesting
Can you share more information about this upcoming Reference Universum 4?
I haven't found anything on the hORNS website...
That could be awesome

 

[byrdparis]

they are just in drawing now, concepts idea....
it might be happened a year for now if any...
let see...