How are top designers reducing digital edge? Banished completely?

[thedudeabides]

Now tomelex, you must be mistaken. Everyone, and everybody knows digital has a natural unnatural edge. It also is 2d. It takes tremendous amounts of money and extreme care with superbly handled setup to almost tame it. Almost, as it has been getting better for 30 years, but we just can't quite get it all cleaned up. To rid it of glare, and edge, and harshness and just a downright unnatural sound.

Well except as you so impertinently point out when we record LP or reel tape all of that stuff seems gone. Digital recordings of those analog sources seem to pass all the wonderfulness of purest unadulterated analogness right on through. Funny isn't it? Just having the analog in there is magic. Pretty much proof that digital isn't ever quite good enough as curious as that seems. (Seems very curious to me).

Hi elsdude,

Everyone and everybody knows digital has a natural unnatural edge. Who, pray tell, is everyone and anybody?

It is also 2d.. My ears must be totally out of whack. Seems to me, from a broader perspective, that dimensionality is determined by many factors, often related to the specific recording, microphones, and other equipment at hand and the care that the recording engineers used when they initially recorded the event. Witness Robert and Wilma Cozart Fine and the Mercury Living Presence, recorded in the early stages of stereo, as one example. Not to mention the numerous jazz recordings made during this period.

I certainly don't dispute the fact that any transfer to a digital or analogue format can be compromised by those folks that control that transfer to the subject medium under question. Read the end product that we listen to as consumers.

What I do dispute is the fact that folks make broad generalizations and believe that they apply in all circumstances. IMHO, indefensible and inherently personal. Your truth / reality may, or more importantly, may not be mine. Pretty simple. Absolutes, IMHO, do not apply, to this wonderful hobby. All that matters is that each individual enjoys listening to music, regardless of the format.

Nuff said. For me at least.

This has been soooooooo overly discussed / debated in various audio forums and there is no consensus. May I suggest that the reason for the lack of consensus is based on the primal / core fact that audio is (all other things equal) a subjective / emotional experience that cannot be put into the proverbial / objective box of what is right or wrong.

Welcome again to "Groundhog Day". Bill Murray is smiling. Have fun gentlemen.

GG

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Dude? You missed the consensus? Of course there is consensus! Digital is eeeeeeeeevil!

Digital bad. Analog good.

Do not confuse the issue with facts. None of them mean anything because someday, the facts we haven't discovered yet will override and nullify all the facts we have discovered. And digital will be evil. Unless, of course, you spend an ungodly amount of money on it. Then it gets acceptable. Barely.

Tim

 

[thedudeabides]

Mr. Tim,

I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor (you probably had it before but I've obviously missed it) and frame the current topic at hand in its proper perspective.

GG

 

[rockitman]

I think digital edge for lack of a better expression is not the D/A as much as it is poor mastering on CD via use of compression, normalization, ect.

 

[caesar]

Some DACs, and even CD players, have filters to remove digital artifacts that are exposed with more resolving gear. For instance, I just upgraded to an Auralic Vega DAC that removes these artifacts, and allows the music to be even more clear with less glare. Definitely, one of the better upgrades for me.

Also, Shunyata has introduced a power cable, the Alpha Digital (based on the Zitron Cobra), which removes the noise created by digital components and is reflected back onto the power line. I replaced a Cobra with an Alpha on my Bryston BDP-1 digital file player and was immediately floored by the improvement. Later, I replaced a Cobra with an Alpha on my Oppo 103, and had a nice improvement in color, clarity, and detail in the picture.

Very interesting, Bluefox, regarding the power cables. Do you have dedicated lines?

 

[caesar]

Dude? You missed the consensus? Of course there is consensus! Digital is eeeeeeeeevil!

Digital bad. Analog good.

Do not confuse the issue with facts. None of them mean anything because someday, the facts we haven't discovered yet will override and nullify all the facts we have discovered. And digital will be evil. Unless, of course, you spend an ungodly amount of money on it. Then it gets acceptable. Barely.

Tim

Sorry, Phelonious, I'm not biting. I like both formats. And what's wrong with spending ungodly amounts of money?

 

[caesar]

Very interesting, Bluefox, regarding the power cables. Do you have dedicated lines?

Scratch that. I think you gave a very fascinating answer in Post #16. Was that high frequency haze present on complex as well as simpler, acoustic music? Is it gone completely?

 

[BlueFox]

Very interesting, Bluefox, regarding the power cables. Do you have dedicated lines?

Yes. The source gear is on a dedicated 12 gauge 20 amp line attached to a Shunyata Triton. The amps are on a dedicated 10 gauge 20 amp line attached to a Shunyata Cyclops. All power cables on both the power conditioners and gear are Zitron Shunyata. The interconnects and speaker cables are Zitron Anacondas. If there is anything in the signal these cables will reveal it.

 

[BlueFox]

Scratch that. I think you gave a very fascinating answer in Post #16. Was that high frequency haze present on complex as well as simpler, acoustic music? Is it gone completely?

Good question. It was apparent at high volume levels, +90 DB levels. Mostly I listen to string quartet type music, but never at that level. I only had this issue when listening to rock at these levels. Mostly, it is now gone. However, sometimes I think I might hear it on some CDs, but if I do hear it now it is subdued, and this is the important part, it does not irritate the tinnitus in my left ear. I cannot over emphasize what an improvement this is.

 

[caesar]

Thank you. And best of luck with the tinnitus.

 

[caesar]

Hi elsdude,

Everyone and everybody knows digital has a natural unnatural edge. Who, pray tell, is everyone and anybody?

It is also 2d.. My ears must be totally out of whack. Seems to me, from a broader perspective, that dimensionality is determined by many factors, often related to the specific recording, microphones, and other equipment at hand and the care that the recording engineers used when they initially recorded the event. Witness Robert and Wilma Cozart Fine and the Mercury Living Presence, recorded in the early stages of stereo, as one example. Not to mention the numerous jazz recordings made during this period.

I certainly don't dispute the fact that any transfer to a digital or analogue format can be compromised by those folks that control that transfer to the subject medium under question. Read the end product that we listen to as consumers.

What I do dispute is the fact that folks make broad generalizations and believe that they apply in all circumstances. IMHO, indefensible and inherently personal. Your truth / reality may, or more importantly, may not be mine. Pretty simple. Absolutes, IMHO, do not apply, to this wonderful hobby. All that matters is that each individual enjoys listening to music, regardless of the format.

Nuff said. For me at least.

This has been soooooooo overly discussed / debated in various audio forums and there is no consensus. May I suggest that the reason for the lack of consensus is based on the primal / core fact that audio is (all other things equal) a subjective / emotional experience that cannot be put into the proverbial / objective box of what is right or wrong.

Welcome again to "Groundhog Day". Bill Murray is smiling. Have fun gentlemen.

GG

Dude, I would be very careful if I were you in choosing your allies, or you may wind up with that high fidelity, $19.99 cd player that Phelonious and Ethan Winer own, instead of the Playback Designs.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Mr. Tim,

I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor (you probably had it before but I've obviously missed it) and frame the current topic at hand in its proper perspective.

GG

In the immortal words of Joni Mitchell: Laughing and crying, you know it's the same release.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Dude, I would be very careful if I were you in choosing your allies, or you may wind up with that high fidelity, $19.99 cd player that Phelonious and Ethan Winer own, instead of the Playback Designs.

The only CD player Phelonious owns is on a shelf in the tool shed, gathering dust. Optical transports, for anything other than the error-corrected copying of discs cannot, by definition, do anything for fidelity but add noise to it. And yes, so can my hard drive. That's why it is isolated from the DAC.

Hi elsdude,

Everyone and everybody knows digital has a natural unnatural edge. Who, pray tell, is everyone and anybody?

It is also 2d.. My ears must be totally out of whack. Seems to me, from a broader perspective, that dimensionality is determined by many factors, often related to the specific recording, microphones, and other equipment at hand and the care that the recording engineers used when they initially recorded the event. Witness Robert and Wilma Cozart Fine and the Mercury Living Presence, recorded in the early stages of stereo, as one example. Not to mention the numerous jazz recordings made during this period.

I certainly don't dispute the fact that any transfer to a digital or analogue format can be compromised by those folks that control that transfer to the subject medium under question. Read the end product that we listen to as consumers.

What I do dispute is the fact that folks make broad generalizations and believe that they apply in all circumstances. IMHO, indefensible and inherently personal. Your truth / reality may, or more importantly, may not be mine. Pretty simple. Absolutes, IMHO, do not apply, to this wonderful hobby. All that matters is that each individual enjoys listening to music, regardless of the format.

Nuff said. For me at least.

This has been soooooooo overly discussed / debated in various audio forums and there is no consensus. May I suggest that the reason for the lack of consensus is based on the primal / core fact that audio is (all other things equal) a subjective / emotional experience that cannot be put into the proverbial / objective box of what is right or wrong.

Welcome again to "Groundhog Day". Bill Murray is smiling. Have fun gentlemen.

Groudhog day indeed. Just sticking my head up to say that IMO, the bold above, and the room = 100% of dimensionality, unless you hear dimensionality in added harmonics and mono bass. I could be wrong, many audiophiles seem to hear "sound stage" in everything from DACs to power cords. But I have yet to see a single data point to support what they hear, so I think I'll continue to believe in what I hear.

Tim

 

[Ken Newton]

Scratch that. I think you gave a very fascinating answer in Post #16. Was that high frequency haze present on complex as well as simpler, acoustic music? Is it gone completely?

I used to stand firmly in the camp of, cables are cables. Well, at least, where rise times and cord lengths are below that for which transmission line effects apply. I used to think, how could 3 feet of copper power cord possibly make an audible difference, given the miles of copper leading to my power company, and the many passive and active electronic components leading to my speakers. Empirical experimentation has now led me to conclude otherwise.

I recently decided to experiment with adding plastic clamshell style snap-on ferrite cores to my interconnects and plain lamp wire style power cord that feeds a DAC of my own design. Not only did I find the tonality obviously changed, I found that I could audibly 'tune' (for lack of a better word) that tonality merely by sliding those clamshell ferrite cores to various positions along the length of the cords. This was a highly surprising result, to me, and one which I would have doubted until I experienced it.

Let me state, that I do not believe in audio magic. Since such ferrite cores are mostly effective at RF frequencies, I suspect that RF intrusion via interconnect and power cords is, perhaps, a more significant issue than is commonly thought. It may explain how 3 feet of copper power cord could make what otherwise seems to be an scientifically impossible audible difference. The difference may depend not on how those 3 feet handle 60Hz, but Megahertz. While I'm far from the first suggest this, I'm becoming convinced that they may be right.

 

[puroagave]

record an LP to a disc, play it back, and then tell me where that "edge" is! I have done this with my digital recorder, and no, it does not produce an edge. Edges nowadays are due to the mix/mastering and playing IMO, all aspects of digital to its extremes, and plain old stereo dont sound good pushed to its extremes, it wants some mono, some fr aberrations, some hf splash, etc. Thats just me, my experience, my gear, my ears. Perfect sound forever meant that once recorded, it would be the same forever no matter how many times it was played, compared to the never the same song twice LP system or the same with the never the same sound twice tape. CD is a storage system, and yes, it will not last forever, but to confuse what we perfer to in sound vs the storage medium is becoming a bit worn, but thats just an old carmagruden like me who has perhaps blabbed a few thousand times too many about my hobby. aha ahah.

we don't have to rely on hearsay, there are two discs with demo cuts of SOTA LP transfers to RBCD titled "Groove into Bits Vol 1 & 2". These are available commercially to anyone that wants to make comparisons between their vinyl copy and a digital transfer of the same. I've compared them and wont say the tonality is too different (vinyl still does a better job) but the size and volume of the stage is truncated and much of the 'air' around instruments, etc. is very different and inferior on the RBCD copy.

 

[caesar]

They use better clocks, with much less phase noise. I have heard several DACs equipped with the latest 'Femto Clocks', and they all seem to share this ultra smooth, grainless quality (without ever sounding mushy or overly soft).

Aftermentioned Auralic Vega is of the DACs that use femto clocks.

Thank you, Elberoth. In my limited experience with hooking up a clock to a digital player stack, was reduction of noise and better PRAT. I know you have deep experience with the best out there, so this is very informative.

Do you have any thoughts on the clean power comments of the other contributors in this thread?

 

[microstrip]

The only CD player Phelonious owns is on a shelf in the tool shed, gathering dust. Optical transports, for anything other than the error-corrected copying of discs cannot, by definition, do anything for fidelity but add noise to it. And yes, so can my hard drive. That's why it is isolated from the DAC.

Are you sure the DAC it is really isolated from your drive? As far as I know, it is galvanically isolated, something different from being completely isolated.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Are you sure the DAC it is really isolated from your drive? As far as I know, it is galvanically isolated, something different from being completely isolated.

What other kind of isolation did you have in mind?

Tim

 

[microstrip]

What other kind of isolation did you have in mind?

Tim

You were referring to noise - galvanic isolation helps by separating the grounds but does not give you complete immunity to noise. The frequencies involved in digital audio serial transmission are much higher than the audio frequencies - leakage of noise is much more difficult to control.

 

[thedudeabides]

Hi Rob,

You give one example. It was widely reported, if I recall correctly, that the exact opposite occurred (CD better than LP sound) with Paul Simon's "Rhythm of the Saints" release. I trust there are other examples where the same finding was found.

Too many variables to come to a definitive conclusion IMHO.

GG