How can one tell they need to upgrade one's Cables? Any cues?

[DaveC]

For the most part, Ked has it right. There are many of us who have been at this for years and who have heard our systems with all levels of cables, both inexpensive and costly. Some experienced users like the great Karmeli and Ki Choi think expensive cables are basically a waste of money. When you hear their systems, you can understand why they believe this is true. Personally, I think you have to make the distinction between speaker cables and interconnect cables. Speaker cables are driving something with a very different impedance than the output amplifiers they are connected to, and as such, the differences between cables can be appreciably different since the cables are critical impedance matching devices where small changes in reactive impedance can have significant sonic effects. IMHO, these differences are generally greater than those found between interconnects. In fact, I have had some incredibly inexpensive interconnects outperform some uber expensive interconnects in some, but not all ways. My guess is that some of these differences might be due to differences in the terminations (i.e gold vs rhodium), and not just in the wire. For example, you might just be very surprised at just how good Mogami 2549 interconnects are with Neutrik gold connectors. You would think that for about $40 they wouldn't be worth a damn. Is it the best interconnect I have ever heard? No, but it is neutral, balanced, musical and damn good. So my question to most folks would be, do you think you have a system where spending far more on interconnects would result in a significant sonic upgrade?

It's worth remembering is that even though there may be differences between interconnects and speaker cables, my guess is that these are relatively small with respect to other factors in one's system, particularly speakers. So if you are looking to spend money to make big effect changes in in your sound, you really have to convince yourself that "cables" are the thing to change as opposed to speakers, or in some cases electronics (ie. SS vs tubes).

Yes. Interconnects are key and very few copper cables are capable of maintaining fine detail in the signal. There are some, but they are usually very expensive and UPOCC silver is still a good bit better as far as preserving resolution. It can make a massive difference in a system that is ready for it. It can make the difference between your room disappearing and you being enveloped in the recording venue or simply hearing a performance in your listening room.

As far as speaker cables, there is a lot more variability because the conditions they operate in are much more variable vs ICs. If you have a system with basic copper ICs and speakers with a moderately complex crossover using cheap parts SCs won't matter nearly as much and good ones are mostly a waste of money. OTOH, with a nice system with good ICs, low noise, and a very high quality crossover, speaker cables can make a big difference.

In terms of preserving fidelity, you don't lose as much going with less expensive copper SCs vs ICs. If you compare ICs and SCs made using the exact same wire you get a feel for it... in general ICs make 2-3x the difference vs SCs. My system can still produce a 3-D enveloping soundstage with my UPOCC copper cables while using the same wire in ICs smooths out a good bit more detail vs UPOCC silver or my silver/gold alloy. The music is less engaging when using copper ICs, soundstage collapses, it's just much more ordinary sounding.

So, I guess it depends on your expectations for a system. Personally, without the right IC cables (and clean, low-noise, unrestricted AC power delivery) I feel you'll never get a superior result. AC power and cables are the backbone of a system yet are often the last to get addressed, seems backwards to me. Once you can actually hear what your gear is capable of you'll be able to make better choices.

OTOH, some don't care about the kind of resolution and presentation I do, which is also fine. Some prefer warm, smooth copper cables and an undefined amorphous soundstage. That's fine too, and you certainly don't need more than Mogami to achieve it. Kind of like my TV. I got a middle of the line tv that looks great if not quite as accurate as the top models. I just don't care, it looks nice and it's more than good enough, it's even better with some material than the most accurate sets.

 

[DaveC]

I'm curious to know if anyone has upgraded to cables that sound better and cost less than what they were replacing.

I don't want to hijack this thread so if a moderators wants, feel free to delete or move this.

My customers, regularly. Some have made money on the deal. I buy my wire from the exact same company vs others that charge many multiples the price for what are usually inferior cables as I don't cut corners on connectors and wire gauge.

 

[marty]

Yes. Interconnects are key and very few copper cables are capable of maintaining fine detail in the signal. There are some, but they are usually very expensive and UPOCC silver is still a good bit better as far as preserving resolution. It can make a massive difference in a system that is ready for it. It can make the difference between your room disappearing and you being enveloped in the recording venue or simply hearing a performance in your listening room.

As far as speaker cables, there is a lot more variability because the conditions they operate in are much more variable vs ICs. If you have a system with basic copper ICs and speakers with a moderately complex crossover using cheap parts SCs won't matter nearly as much and good ones are mostly a waste of money. OTOH, with a nice system with good ICs, low noise, and a very high quality crossover, speaker cables can make a big difference.

In terms of preserving fidelity, you don't lose as much going with less expensive copper SCs vs ICs. If you compare ICs and SCs made using the exact same wire you get a feel for it... in general ICs make 2-3x the difference vs SCs. My system can still produce a 3-D enveloping soundstage with my UPOCC copper cables while using the same wire in ICs smooths out a good bit more detail vs UPOCC silver or my silver/gold alloy. The music is less engaging when using copper ICs, soundstage collapses, it's just much more ordinary sounding.

So, I guess it depends on your expectations for a system. Personally, without the right IC cables (and clean, low-noise, unrestricted AC power delivery) I feel you'll never get a superior result. AC power and cables are the backbone of a system yet are often the last to get addressed, seems backwards to me. Once you can actually hear what your gear is capable of you'll be able to make better choices.

OTOH, some don't care about the kind of resolution and presentation I do, which is also fine. Some prefer warm, smooth copper cables and an undefined amorphous soundstage. That's fine too, and you certainly don't need more than Mogami to achieve it. Kind of like my TV. I got a middle of the line tv that looks great if not quite as accurate as the top models. I just don't care, it looks nice and it's more than good enough, it's even better with some material than the most accurate sets.

Well Caesar, there you have it. You probably couldn't have gotten two more divergent opinions on the subject that the ones DaveC and I provided. That's why audio preferences are like ice cream flavors. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice!

 

[DaveC]

Well Caesar, there you have it. You probably couldn't have gotten two more divergent opinions on the subject that the ones DaveC and I provided. That's why audio preferences are like ice cream flavors. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice!

Lol... I think there are variables that change our experiences with things like cables and make it really hard to tell exactly what's going on. What I can say, is over 5 years now of sending folks demo cables I can almost always predict what an IC cable will do in a system but SCs are much more variable. I know with some speakers SCs just won't matter much, cheap xo parts and drivers make for a speaker that doesn't respond much to SCs, for example. OTOH, I can predict what the result will be with single drivers and SCs much more often, SC is the only thing between amp and drivers. Getting into bi-wiring and jumpers, I just can't tell a customer what's likely to be best in every situation, it's simply impossible. I can only give guidelines for experimentation.

I do totally agree with you that cables don't make big changes in the character of the sound. It optimizes what you already have. So, if you want something significantly different in some way, different dispersion, flatter frequency response, better quality drivers, etc... these are changes that are fundamentally different from what cables provide. But, basic copper cables do color the sound immensely, and will increase the chances you may make poor choices in selecting components for your system. For example, you may not recognize harshness or breakup in a speaker driver because it's smoothed out... get good cables and now you can hear more of the breakup resonance! So it can be a double edged sword. Many are not ready for good cables, but for those who want the truth, they are key. And starting with good cables and AC power just makes sense, it will lead to a better system in the long run. Just my experience...

 

[treitz3]

How do people know it's time to change a cable or to upgrade to a newer model?

There is no "time". It boils down to preference. Does one need to change due to other circumstances?

Some think there will be no change. Others disagree. Some strongly either way.

Tom

 

[caesar]

Gentlemen,
Thank you. Very informative!

I know that silver is mentioned a lot above as material of choice. Any thoughts on companies like Teo, Stealth, and possibly others that seem to use gas coatings?

Thank you

 

[bonzo75]

I owned Teo Spdif cable. It had extremely weak in the lower half. Sold it.

 

[caesar]

And here's yet another perspective from the excellent New Yorker article on audiophilia. (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/audiophilia-forever-an-expensive-new-years-shopping-guide)



....“Sweet system,” Fremer muttered behind me. But then he grew dissatisfied with the cables running to the speakers—very expensive cables, made by Nordost—and he asked for a change. Jason Tavares, who runs Adirondack, plugged in a much less expensive pair, the Kimber Kable 12TC ($360), and damned if the sound wasn’t better—the bass lines clearer, the air around the solo instruments cleaner. “Case closed!” Fremer announced from behind my ear. “That ends that argument.'

Everything matters. The sound was better with different cables...."

Perhaps a bit dramatized. Yet Seems to hold truth, based on some experienced guys I have seen go to work setting up a system, who don't quite seem to have found their sound...

 

[bonzo75]

Try the Crystal cable absolute dream then. Expensive but does a lot for the sound

 

[Empirical Audio]

I owned Teo Spdif cable. It had extremely weak in the lower half. Sold it.

I discovered with S/PDIF cables that the connection between the coax and the connector is actually more important than the connector. Therefore, I use BNC to terminate and 75 ohm RCA adapters. Here are some jitter plots of different cables:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0

My Standard BNC cable is only $275 and my Reference BNC is $499. 30-day money-back, less shipping.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Empirical Audio]

Silver is also my preference for IC's, but with a caveat. The silver must be good silver and not "broken".

Good silver is OCC high-purity and is annealed properly. It must be handled properly and assembled with care or it becomes broken. The crystal lattice can end-up with a lot of fractures and discontinuities that affect the SQ.

Broken silver can have an edgy, brittle sound.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio