How Do Horn Speakers Get Their Gorgeous Life-like Tonality?

[Ron Resnick]

SETs with horns have a continuity and flow of music unlike other systems, which sound more stop start in comparison. They also allow you to to play music much more easily on the ears, because the rise and fall, the dynamic range, and soft to loud passages are handled more easily than cones which have mismatched drivers as complex crossovers. The tonality of piano and brass is where they excel to other speakers. When it comes to violin and vocals, they are as good but I also can do with other speakers.

And then some with no crossover, single driver like the pnoe and yamamura go beyond. Also, driving a sensitive efficient speaker with 1w played through no resistors, caps, or crossovers gives more nuances and purity to the tone

Many horns are cupped in the vocals, and many face bass integration issues leading to digital hybrid bass. Some can be shouty. Of course, these are to be avoided.

Even SETs with devore orangutan will give that flow to the music. What these and horns will also do is give a transparency to recordings, allowing you to see more into performances without needing to have a constant stage and style like many cones do. Other non horn speakers with simple crossovers like Mike's or audio machina with transparent electronics also allow that, but most of Avalon, Wilson, Lansche, focal, Magico, etc create a constant stage and style that makes many recordings sound the same. This can be easily demonstrated if you use different labels from Decca, RCA, EMI, reissues, monos, etc. I am not sure if this is only due to the complexity of the crossover or also the driver

Very well-stated, Kedar! I think this post embodies several complex and valuable truths which you, and I think I, have discovered for ourselves and synthesized over the last three years.

(I think this post deserved more recognition than a mere “like.”)

 

[Tango]

most of Avalon, Wilson, Lansche, focal, Magico, etc create a constant stage and style that makes many recordings sound the same. This can be easily demonstrated if you use different labels from Decca, RCA, EMI, reissues, monos, etc. I am not sure if this is only due to the complexity of the crossover or also the driver

Really? Does this homogeneity come more from the speakers or the source equipment?

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

Really? Does this homogeneity come more from the speakers or the source equipment?

Tang

More from speakers. Already tried. Whether it also comes from source equipment is a different point.

 

[microstrip]

SETs with horns have a continuity and flow of music unlike other systems, which sound more stop start in comparison. They also allow you to to play music much more easily on the ears, because the rise and fall, the dynamic range, and soft to loud passages are handled more easily than cones which have mismatched drivers as complex crossovers. The tonality of piano and brass is where they excel to other speakers. When it comes to violin and vocals, they are as good but I also can do with other speakers.

And then some with no crossover, single driver like the pnoe and yamamura go beyond. Also, driving a sensitive efficient speaker with 1w played through no resistors, caps, or crossovers gives more nuances and purity to the tone

Many horns are cupped in the vocals, and many face bass integration issues leading to digital hybrid bass. Some can be shouty. Of course, these are to be avoided.

Even SETs with devore orangutan will give that flow to the music. What these and horns will also do is give a transparency to recordings, allowing you to see more into performances without needing to have a constant stage and style like many cones do. Other non horn speakers with simple crossovers like Mike's or audio machina with transparent electronics also allow that, but most of Avalon, Wilson, Lansche, focal, Magico, etc create a constant stage and style that makes many recordings sound the same. This can be easily demonstrated if you use different labels from Decca, RCA, EMI, reissues, monos, etc. I am not sure if this is only due to the complexity of the crossover or also the driver

Ked,

I will agree on the easiness of SET - there are know reasons for it - and appreciate your subjective opinions, but will disagree on some of your findings and most of all, with the primitive and technically absurd explanations for it. Imaginary mismatched drivers? Prejudice against complex crossovers? Played through no resistors, caps, or crossovers gives more nuances and purity to the tone?

"Most of Avalon, Wilson, Lansche, focal, Magico, etc create a constant stage and style that makes many recordings sound the same?" Yes, they make them sound like music in real halls, not dissecting the recording techniques used to disguise the analog recording limitations.

Fortunately your most beloved and preferred system shows that most of your arguments are weak - Mike's great and complex system is the proof that your pseudo technical discourse is inconsistent .

I respect people subjective preferences, and consider them very useful for audio debate. Our preferences are extremely dependent on our own objectives of sound reproduction . But if we want to use technical arguments and correlate them with subjective findings we must be correct and exact on the technical part, not repeating the same week arguments forever and admitting exceptions to please our preferences. As always, IMHO and YMMV.

Yes, I am enjoying a lot the simple Lamm's. But the complex VTL's are more real ... The choice will be subjective and hard!

 

[PeterA]

Really? Does this homogeneity come more from the speakers or the source equipment?

Tang

Perhaps it comes from tweaks.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, I am enjoying a lot the simple Lamm's. But the complex VTL's are more real ... The choice will be subjective and hard!

That's because Lamms are a mismatch for your speakers. You should get horns.

 

[Tango]

Perhaps it comes from tweaks.

Not perhaps Peter. That's one thing for sure.

I asked because I dont have experience hearing different speakers in my current system.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

That's because Lamms are a mismatch for your speakers. You should get horns.

Now you are going to get more rocks thrown at you my friend.

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

Not perhaps Peter. That's one thing for sure.

I asked because I dont have experience hearing different speakers in my current system.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang, at your place, I tried different recordings through the same speaker with different sources. Similarly, I have heard them in the same place with the same source, but changing the speakers this time from 65k Lansche to Devore orangutans. Nothing else changed. Every recording on the Lansche has the same stage, depth, etc. Only thing that differs is a compressed pressing sounds well, compressed, and a good pressing sounds more open. Same with a CH precision stack and Alexandria X2S2. Same like Lansche. LSO, CSO, BSO sound the same irrespective of their concert hall and the year of performance. Do some horns do that? Yes. Anima does that. Yours doesn't, but what would be interesting to know when you put back the subs is does the digital crossover retain the transparency to recordings or does it create a constant color.

Recently have tried Allnic set amps, Edge NL, Vitus Signature, and KR VA 200 on the Avalon Compass Diamonds. Things change, but once they change, they speaker keeps whatever has changed constant. What did work was adding a Soulution preamp, it showed more insights, but the changing style of the speaker stays so constant.

Martin Logans are good that way in showing more transparency to recordings.

Now...the color I am referring to is different from the color of say, a midbass bump from a TT which will stay constant across recordings. It will show changes in recordings though have that bump in all of them.

Regarding the comment that this staging etc makes them sound like music in real halls instead of analysing recordings...if one gets good recordings made on Decca, EMI, and many other labels, letting those recordings show through creates the realism...it will be more real tone, real stage, and real everything

 

[DaveC]

There's lots of ways to achieve good sound.

For me, I tend to prefer the simplicity of SET amps and single drivers. The more complicated the system the more it's going to cost and the more difficult it's going to be to get just right.

On Topic... I have two nearly identical midrange drivers. One is designed for a flat baffle, the other is designed for a particular LeCleach horn that I use in my speaker.

As far as tone, there are reasons the horn-loaded driver is better. It is much more efficient... horn loading makes the driver more efficient, as does it's design for use in a horn. With a horn you're not fighting the natural rising response of a typical midrange driver, instead the horn acts as an EQ device for the driver. So not only do you get acoustic gain due to better mechanical impedance match with the air, but the design of the driver can be made more efficient as well. This results in the horn-loaded version being about 10 dB more efficient. That is not just a lot, it's A LOT!

Second is directivity. The horn loaded version preserves fine detail and harmonics better vs a flat baffle due to acoustics.

Third is the fact the horn it's self is a resonating acoustic device, and just like a footer or whatever, it's modifying the harmonic content of the music, sometimes in a favorable way. In some horns, it's not favorable at all... but ALL horns do this to some extent.

The best way to hear for yourself the horn's coloration is to listen to female vocals on the horns, then on a really good panel speaker like Quad, ML, etc.. Panel speakers have this advantage of offering less modified harmonics and it's easy to hear with vocals. With other things like brass instruments the added harmonics of horns can make things seem more lifelike, but it doesn't translate as well to vocals. Cone 'n' dome are more varied, for example Harbeth's cabinet signs along while Magico doesn't, but from what I've heard something like TAD Reference series coax driver will come pretty close to a panel as far as purity of tone and not adding a lot of extra harmonics.

As you can tell I'm convinced that very low level harmonics added to the music via electromechanical feedback mechanisms are the answer to many of our questions on why things sound different.

 

[DaveC]

Every recording on the Lansche has the same stage, depth, etc. Only thing that differs is a compressed pressing sounds well, compressed, and a good pressing sounds more open. Same with a CH precision stack and Alexandria X2S2. Same like Lansche. LSO, CSO, BSO sound the same irrespective of their concert hall and the year of performance. Do some horns do that? Yes. Anima does that. Yours doesn't, but what would be interesting to know when you put back the subs is does the digital crossover retain the transparency to recordings or does it create a constant color.

IME this is an issue with setup and/or AC power quality and/or components in the system.

This is one of the main things I listen for, the system must be capable of portraying the recording venue, and the system must sound spatially different between different recordings. If this isn't the case then I think the system needs some work. However, I rarely believe it's the speaker's fault. It's usually something else.

 

[bonzo75]

IME this is an issue with setup and/or AC power quality and/or components in the system.

This is one of the main things I listen for, the system must be capable of portraying the recording venue, and the system must sound spatially different between different recordings. If this isn't the case then I think the system needs some work. However, I rarely believe it's the speaker's fault. It's usually something else.

So, why doesn't this happen when you change speakers? I changed them in the same room, everything else the same. And this gets repeated for similar type speakers across rooms

 

[DaveyF]

Sometimes, I question whether this forum should be renamed...: "The horn lovers forum"

Are there any members out there that aren't as enamored of these designs as I am???

 

[bonzo75]

Sometimes, I question whether this forum should be renamed...: "The horn lovers forum"

Are there any members out there that aren't as enamored of these designs as I am???

The name sounds more real and coherent than Wilson lovers forum

 

[DaveC]

So, why doesn't this happen when you change speakers? I changed them in the same room, everything else the same. And this gets repeated for similar type speakers across rooms

Room acoustics, AC power quality and/or ground current flow, component or cable that is not capable of preserving resolution.

Either the fine detail in the recording is not making it through the system or the acoustics of the room and the speaker are not getting along.

IME, it's easier to get good results WRT hearing the recording venue's acoustics with speakers that have more directivity and are not bipole/dipole. OTOH, I've heard conventional speakers in a good setup provide a "You are There" experience as well. It's just not very common.

 

[DaveyF]

The name sounds more real and coherent than Wilson lovers forum

Anybody hear the new Wilson Wamm's...I have a very suspicious feeling that if they did...it would be called 'The Wamm lovers forum'

or " how I ended up hating my 'cupped hands' effect and opened the window to musical enlightenment forum"..

 

[manisandher]

I've owned and lived with 5 different speakers in my current listening room (in chronological order):
- Wilson Benesch Chimera (passive 'regular')
- Quad 2905 (passive electrostatic)
- BD-Design Swing (passive coaxial mid/high horn, active 15' bass)
- BD-Design Orelo (active coaxial mid/high horn, active 3x 15' bass)
- Tune Audio Anima (passive LF, mid and high horns)

There's one word that sums up why I like the sound of good horns - dynamics. IME, no other type of speaker can other types of speaker struggle to reproduce anywhere near realistic dynamics... in a domestic environment.

Consider the Quad 2905, with its 86dB/W@1m sensitivity vs. my current Anima with its ~105dB/W@1m sensitivity. In my listening room, for an average of 85dBSPL with peaks of 20dB, the Quads require 715 W of peak power from the amplifier! For the same SPL/peaks, the Anima requires just 9 W.

Mani.

 

[Al M.]

So, why doesn't this happen when you change speakers? I changed them in the same room, everything else the same. And this gets repeated for similar type speakers across rooms

Because every speaker needs *its own* setup. You can't just plonk any speaker into the same spot and expect a similarly favorable result.

If you don't optimize for each component, your comparisons are flawed, at worst to the point where they become meaningless.

The high end is unsuitable for off the cuff "quickie" comparisons.

 

[microstrip]

That's because Lamms are a mismatch for your speakers. You should get horns.

Nice to know you are now an expert in Lamm and Wilson Audio XLFs ...
Or did you forget the smile?

 

[bonzo75]

Because every speaker needs *its own* setup. You can't just plonk any speaker into the same spot and expect a similarly favorable result.

If you don't optimize for each component, your comparisons are flawed, at worst to the point where they become meaningless.

The high end is unsuitable for off the cuff "quickie" comparisons.

Quick compares are done by you Boston guys. Did you read what I said? This extends to rooms where speakers have been set up for ages. Apart from comparing in same rooms. You should read properly and not misquote to your interpretation. But given that you are still with Schiit digital, I don't expect you to appreciate changes in recordings