How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

Esoteric-CD.jpg
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
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Ron,

FWIW, I Have a well healed, very discerning Japanese client with an amazing six figure digital system I helped him build, yet it's still fronted by a Cambridge transport he loves (begrudgingly, I have to admit, it is an outstanding price performance piece..
It consistently outperforms streaming devices, whether I provide them or from others.

For Reference all the digital sources in his system coming off the Cambridge are handled by a Black Cat SPDIF cable into a cascading pair of MUTEC MC3+s each by a MUTEC RE10 120SEMaster Clock.

The rest of his system includes the Aries Cerat IMPERA Preamp feeding a pair of Audionet Heisenbergs.
(He also has an equally impressive analog setup, which he now rarely listens to.)

He currently has three pairs of speakers: the Lumen Whites, The Sonus Faber Stradavarius Homage and a pair of Linn Isobariks

(We have also integrated a pair of REL Gibraltar G2s for the bottom octave.
Digital Cabling from Snake River, Inakustik, and Black Cat.
Analog abling includes Siltec 35th Anniversary Silver, Kondo Silver, and Ear to Ear power cords)

And which DAC does he use?

I don't understand the cascading of the mutecs. What does that actually do?
 
For Reference all the digital sources in his system coming off the Cambridge are handled by a Black Cat SPDIF cable into a cascading pair of MUTEC MC3+s each by a MUTEC RE10 120SEMaster Clock

Am I understanding this correctly that he is reclocking the signal coming from the Cambridge 3 times? If so, then his CD playback isn't bettering that of his streaming based upon the performance of the Cambridge
 
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
I have not heard your DAC (Lampizator Baltic 3) but I am aware it is held in high regard. I'd give serious thought to pairing it with a really excellent quality dedicated CD transport such as the Pro-Ject R2ST or a Jay's Audio CDT2 MK III/CDT3 MK III (Their flagship).
They are not cheap nor are they exorbitant in cost. I believe that you'd be very impressed with anyone of them connected to your Baltic 3 DAC.
Best wishes
Charles
 
Weren’t there some early reports of not great build quality with the Pro-Ject DS2 T? And the fact that it weighs only 3.6 pounds is not reassuring to me (although I appreciate this may be a spurious point).

Didn’t you have two transports in-house at the same time at one point?
 
Am I understanding this correctly that he is reclocking the signal coming from the Cambridge 3 times? If so, then his CD playback isn't bettering that of his streaming based upon the performance of the Cambridge
To be clear, the MUTEC 'Stack' is upstream of all digital sources. Therefore relative comparisons of digital sources; whether its the Cambridge, the LT 64 core Memory Player or the various streaming components auditioned are valid.
 
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I am undecided but I do have one relevant observation. I was skeptical about streaming sound quality until a few things happened:

1. I bought a better DAC.
2. I added a better run of ethernet cable.
3. I added an ethernet switch.
4. I added an audiophile power supply to my internet gateway.

Streaming sound quality now is simply spectacular.
Add a separate PS for every part of the chain. 1.5m digital cable (for the proper handshake between the two components) and streaming can be very close and at times, superior.

The recording is ultimately responsible for what one hears but IME? Both can be blissfully awesome. I have never had this stance before (was always a physical media type of guy....analog is an exception) but I was were you were/are but regardless? I am enjoying (tremendously) the end result as to what hits these ears.

Tom
 
Weren’t there some early reports of not great build quality with the Pro-Ject DS2 T? And the fact that it weighs only 3.6 pounds is not reassuring to me (although I appreciate this may be a spurious point).

Didn’t you have two transports in-house at the same time at one point?
Yes, there have been some reports of reliability issues with some of the RS2T units. I’ve heard of no further problems and hopefully the issue has been acknowledged and addressed.

I have owned my RS2T for just over a year with very frequent use and have experienced zero problems. Yes, it’s compact (Their “Box” concept for small footprint), the irony is small physical size but huge, open and authoritative dynamic presentation.

Much attention paid to isolation and vibration management of the drive mechanism. Very good implementation of the latest Stream Unlimited CD-Pro 8 and Blue Tiger integrated servo system.

This transport sounds better across the sonic spectrum compared to my long-held P..S. Audio PWT which I happily owned for 12 years. The RS2T is a superb sounding CD transport.

If you’re uneasy about it, then there’s the universally praised Jay’s Audio models. I do not own one, but know those who do and they love it. I sincerely believe you could not go wrong with either matched with your DAC.
Charles
 
Thank you, Charles.

Do you have an opinion on the sound of those transports versus a Cambridge Audio CXC V2?
 
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Ron, Considering your strong predilection for and love of Vinyl, and more recently R2R ,I would recommend that you take a look at two recent models of belt drive CD transport‘s from CEC , the revised dual beltTL2N or latest single belt drive TL5 .

.
 
As someone who bought his first CD player in 1985 (!), and has tried a bewildering variety of CD transports over the past 35+ years (from the early laserdisc based Theta Data to the Pioneer stable disc inverted platter to the dCS Verdi, the Levinson 37, the Esoteric P-03, and finally, my latest and most recent transports in the house: the ARC CD 8, the Chord Blu Mk2/M-scaler, the Oppo universal 205D player, and the undisputed king of all CD transports, the two chassis belt-driven CEC TL0), I find this one of the most vexing issues in high end audio. For various reasons, I’m reluctant to get rid of my 7000+ CD/SACD physical media collected over a lifetime. Ah, the many trips to the late lamented multi-storeyTower Records in Greenwich Village and the sensational Berkshire Record Outlet in Western Massachusetts that had an astonishing variety of CDs at bargain prices, and the Princeton Record Exchange in New Jersey, I miss the experience of physical immersive shopping for records. You could chat with the sales personnel on the intricacies of Beethoven performances, whether to go for the iron disciplinarian Toscanini to the loosey goosey interpretations by Bernstein, and get a great education on new composers and performers. Alas, that era is gone forever.

But, the bigger reason is that streaming is still not as good as a quality transport based replay. I speak as a lifetime subscriber to Roon, who listens to a lot of Qobuz releases. I still find the very best digital replay in my house is the massive 50 pound CEC TL0 belt driven transport playing back a humble 16-bit CD. That’s the vexing issue. Why is 24-bit 192 kHZ streaming not head and shoulders above CD replay? Theoretically, it should be. It’s much higher bitrate. Except it’s not to my ears. So, I’m still hanging to my huge physical media collection. I feel like the character in the movie High Fidelity, whose life is mirrored in his vinyl collection.
 
Thank you, Charles.

Do you have an opinion on the sound of those transports versus a Cambridge Audio CXC V2?
I have had no direct interaction with the Cambridge transport. @facten gave his listening experience as a former Cambridge owner.

He said what other owners of this transport have said, it’s very good value for the money but can certainly be improved upon. It’s often compared with the Audiolab 6000CDT which is another high value 600.00USD transport.

The CD transports I discussed earlier are 4 to 8x more costly. However, many who are familiar with them believe their higher level of sound quality justifies the higher expense.

So, it will depend on one’s budget comfort level and how far they want to pursue upper tier CD sound quality. Redbook CD is very important to me. I know how terrific it can sound via high-quality transports and DACs.
The higher level, better sounding transports are worth every penny as far as I am concerned.
Charles
 
Off topic for a moment. This USC-UCLA game is just a classic! Good grief! How many total yards of offense between these two teams? What fun to watch.
Charles
 
The OP asked what the minimum Transport required to better Streaming.
IMO in all but extremely optimized streaming setups, the Cambridge is all one needs.
For those uuber streaming setups, one might have to splurge on a Avatar or a Jay's or one of the many many many legendary transports of yore, which of course, can be had for pennies on the dollar.
 
And which DAC does he use?

I don't understand the cascading of the mutecs. What does that actually do?
Cascading D2D devices like the MUTEC MC3+USBs is not an unusual, a fairly common practice easily audible in a commensurate system (at least adding the first two or three units).
I find two to be just right for most systems, but we do have clients with three or more.
 
for me the best drive studer a 727 separate clock input and output. great even as a cd player with the transformer-coupled outputs. you don't need mored788faaf-643c-4af9-b4f3-174cb5cb77ee.jpeg
 
i don't have a dog in this fight. It just seems to me you guys are ignoring the 800 lb. elephant in the room. Software. I can't believe I am saying this-"Bits is Bits."
What you are saying is"-
1. The quality of the bits on a CD is superior t to those that come from a streamer service.
2. The recording on a CD is superior to those coming from a streamer.
3. Reading the data from the CD is superior to receiving it from a streamer.
Prove it.
 
better? best? better than what exactly? i think we need specifics. general cases are just rhetoric. and Ron is talking about modest priced choices. but posters are speaking absolutes without qualification.

Wadax makes a very good CD/SACD transport, maybe the best one. but so far i hear tell they can't get one to equal or better their top server. and now, that server has a new power supply. and.....that's with streaming or files. so we don't see a new Wadax Ref transport yet. and that is just streaming and files for redbook and 1xdsd. not even high rez above that.

probably my 'favorite' digital is a streaming Quboz native 16/44 file. combination of great performance, and great native live recording not mucked with. go figure.

i'll choose native files or native streaming files from the Wadax Ref dac and server as the highest performance digital out there (highest levels of suspension of disbelief). this is over many samples, there are always going to be exceptions. and for sure, non native digital gives an unpredictable result. and certainly some love the character of their gear. objectivity is really not possible. Wadax is optimized for Roon, Quboz and Tidal. but most servers are not optimized in the same way. so results are going to vary.

maybe Wadax will get a transport to be better. but maybe just different or similar. at some point. but maybe never. i know they are trying. maybe in a year or two we might get a result. could be their current transport is as good as transports get.
 
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Maybe a challenge in what starts out as a quite specific question and then spins out to then become more of a full on general tussle over best format is to possibly try and stay a bit more context grounded. Ron is looking at digital at a reasonably constrained and (relative to his other gear) more mundane level so not so sure about any clear and easy bulletproof absolutes holding lock tight at the lower end of available transports…. most all choices at this price point are going to have a mix of both potentials and constraints.

Also there are quite a group here at WBF who play up at the best of the best in the digital sources end and interestingly they seem to not be weighing in here much at all into this thread… is it simply at the better end the difference between digital including with file replay and in stream simply less an issue with the more recent top end digital. I’m really not sure sane people would be playing at the Extreme and Wadax end and happily streaming if it wasn’t also a deeply musically satisfying option when implementation is also at its best.

Maybe when it comes to format wars it’s easy to get a bit caught up in our own personal audio mythology at times and ignore all the other potential variables that make rules just guides and definitively something less than concrete absolutes.

Edit have just posted after a delayed write and only just have seen post post Mike L’s post above.
 
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