How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?

 

This year was the first year at AXPONA that we supplemented CD playback with streaming using the Vivaldi 4 box system.
While still slightly inferior sonically, the ease of access/playback is undeniable. The gap is narrowed even more by the APEX upgrade
and the addition of Ethernet switches/accessories.It’s not there yet on our system, but getting much closer than say 6-7 years ago when it was significantly lacking in comparison.

 

i'd completely agree that it takes a pretty good server/dac doing files and streaming to surpass a good disc player. where is that break point? that's a good discussion.

It is very kind and thoughtful and generous of many of you to interpret my opening post as a question soliciting advice to enable me to make a decision for myself. That was not my intent here, however.

Often I start threads raising questions or topics which I find interesting — and which I hope are interesting to others. That was the case here, based on Lucasz’s clear answer earlier this year about preferring generally the sound of CDs or computer file serving over streaming.

Yet we know that all-out-assault digital streaming can best a very modest CD transport. That led me to wonder where the crossing point (or as Mike put it “break point”) is. I thought that particular (narrower than the usual general digital debate questions) was an interesting question.

Mike restated my opening post perfectly by writing the above.

So, thank you very much, again, for helping me with my personal decision process, but that truly was not what I had in mind with this particular thread.

 

Ron, back in October you wrote this on your room/system thread:

"In the cold, sober light of morning I have decided that I am not going to get a CD transport; I am not going to get a CD player; and available funds have to be focused on buying now only what I really need to get the stereo playing music from vinyl and tape. I don’t want to make the system even more complicated from its “Big Bang.”"

I had been under the impression that you were simply getting digital, likely streaming, so that your friends and visitors could click unlimited selections of their favorite music by tapping glass on a laptop or pad to hear music through your new system. You bought a Lampizator DAC for this purpose and now need a digital source of some kind. I had also thought that when alone you were only planning to listen to music on your vinyl because that is what you prefer: vinyl for you, digital for friends and visitors.

Have you decided that you will now offer both a CD option as well as streaming to your visitors?

You are correct on each point, Peter.

I will not be offering a CD option to visitors.

My personal situation is that I have less than 20 CDs of favorite titles (U2 Joshua Tree, Famous Blue Raincoat, Madonna True Blue, Steve Winwood Roll With It) that embody digital recordings. It’s just not worth it, to me personally, to buy a new component, and to take up a Nothing rack shelf, to maximize the sound quality of so few CDs.

 

Nobody here wants to pour bad sound out of their speakers. Equilibrium appears to be the order of the day.

Exactly this concept was my thinking about a temporary CD player on my first system thread rather than pressing into service my $99 Sony universal disc player.

And this concept also is driving my aim for relatively modest, but very high value per dollar digital, but not the least expensive possible digital capability, for visitors. Among other future guests I want Keith and pk_LA to be able to play their contemporary classical tracks, of which I have none on vinyl.

 

I just did a listening test using my Rossini transport and the Keb Mo MFSL SACD. The I listened back and forth with the Qobuz stream at 24/192.

They are very close, but the SACD has a slight edge. Both source files sound excellent.

This could be down to mastering difference, my preference for DSD over PCM, or something else…but I still prefer the improvement in clarity from the disc version.

I do suspect we have some break-in needed still on the transport. I am in the process of moving more silver discs down to the listening room.

It’s really nice to be able to play all of these formats…tape, vinyl, SACD, CD, Tidal and Qobuz.

 

I should add that is very difficult to do a true apples to apples comparison. I guess I could go down to 16/44 and play the CD versus the non-hirez files.

I am not even sure of my previous comments either. For instance, I think I slightly prefer the track Love Blues on the 24/192 streaming.

It’s very close In any event.

 

I just did a listening test using my Rossini transport and the Keb Mo MFSL SACD. The I listened back and forth with the Qobuz stream at 24/192.

They are very close, but the SACD has a slight edge. Both source files sound excellent.

This could be down to mastering difference, my preference for DSD over PCM, or something else…but I still prefer the improvement in clarity from the disc version.

I do suspect we have some break-in needed still on the transport. I am in the process of moving more silver discs down to the listening room.

It’s really nice to be able to play all of these formats…tape, vinyl, SACD, CD, Tidal and Qobuz.

Thank you for performing this test, Lee! Yes, your system now is truly a “universal player”!

 

Simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication or in this case sound quality.

The cost and efforts to reduce distortion in streaming/file playback is quite tedious.

Whereas one-box or transport/dac combo your analog out right in your pre-amp.

Less variables for distortion entering the signal path over streaming/file playback.

Convenient to have millions of songs at your fingertips. But physical media stills win with quality over quantity (for now)

Of course, to each their own.

 

I only want to get out of my chair to flip the vinyl, or pour more wine. streaming or local file playback with Xtreme server is remarkable SQ so the silver discs remain in the closet, or garage. I sold my spinner a decade ago.

 

“We're talking about an old Standard Philips invented in the late 1970's for digital music reproduction, theoretical good for 20 Khz and much better noise and dynamics as any analog record. That should be surpassed 40 years later easily.”

In theory sure. If actually listening is involved then it isn’t clear cut at all.
Using that criteria, analog tape and records should be completely obsolete and not even worthy of discussion. This is hardly the case.

Listening is superior to theory, test measured performance and what it’s supposed to be.
Charles

With the invention of transistor amps, we have seen (or auditioned), that it needed some decades to make this device listenable. The transistor itself is a very non linear device and hasn't the objective linear qualities of an audio tube. So it needed improved circuit technologies to make it enjoyable in audio amps.

With digital technology I think it's the same, this technology needed some decades to bring really good sound to us. The first generation of digital recordings often sounded harsh, not analog. I hope, with the modern and advanced digital technology this is a feature of the past.

Of course, listening is the absolute test and measurements are only a reduced mathematical model of the reality. So we can listen to many things, that were not being able to describe with measurements.
I'm running an all analog, all tube audio system myself, and I know why I love this sound. It's not about the measurements, but it's the superb audio qualities it has.

And that's why I was asking about the streaming quality today compared to the old Philips standard, which took the shannon sampling theorem for defining the technical data of digital recordings. 16 bits for sure can be beaten today and I would wonder what is the actual streming of hi- res files standard in music recording and reproduction?

 

I think ron is looking to hand someone a remote or iPad for anything digital
he loves analog as he should and most of us
the digital portion of this hobby is way to complex for me in that what is correct or not. im well versed as A tech and can hear well to know when-its bad
but When it’s good or getting better things get blurry
I think comparing analog to digital or now cd to streaming or server to steamer is just a hot mess of confusion
I think Ron owns or is buying a Baltic dac it’s a great dac and a good transport is getting into the weeds if we start to compare what’s better or correct.
I doubt any cd transport to his Baltic will be more musical then his soon to be well set up analog
Lastly any given cd to any given analog vinyl pressing comes down to not just who made it but who made it well.
we all own plenty of great lp disks by gods hands and yet not so great
i think Ron has a great attitude
in that he Accepts digital for what it is
and it’s not where music is
it’s just near but at best

 

I only want to get out of my chair to flip the vinyl, or pour more wine. streaming or local file playback with Xtreme server is remarkable SQ so the silver discs remain in the closet, or garage. I sold my spinner a decade ago.

May I suggest keeping the wine bottle next to your chair? If the temp is an issue, drink faster

Some say the Jays CDT 3 is better than an Extreme when wired I2S through the RJ45. I don’t care. My cd’s aren’t even in alphabetical order anymore. Not going there. Just waiting for XDMS, the network card, the switch, and the BPS, and maybe a temp controlled wine cooler.

 

May I suggest keeping the wine bottle next to your chair? If the temp is an issue, drink faster

We haven’t met, but I like the way you think.

 

We haven’t met, but I like the way you think.

We must be pragmatic about these things in times of rising inertia. If only disc flipping could be synchronized with the pottie breaks. Minidisc?
Someday.

 

May I suggest keeping the wine bottle next to your chair? If the temp is an issue, drink faster

Some say the Jays CDT 3 is better than an Extreme when wired I2S through the RJ45. I don’t care. My cd’s aren’t even in alphabetical order anymore. Not going there. Just waiting for XDMS, the network card, the switch, and the BPS, and maybe a temp controlled wine cooler.

This is a slippery slope. Roon or XDMS is hugely more convenient than playing vinyl or finding a CD in a large collection — I can relate since I’ve long ago given up hope of organizing my physical media. Where this road leads to is having algorithms make your listening choices for you. Pretty soon, why even bother taking the trouble to select an album to play from Qobuz or Tidal or your ripped collection. Surely, Roon Radio can do that for you. Let AI do all the thinking for you while you sip your wine. No thinking needed anymore. Roon Radio can play uninterrupted 24/7. But then it becomes background schmaltz that you’re not even paying attention to anymore. It’s elevator music.

As retro as it might sound, I like the physical effort in playing vinyl or a physical disc, even if that’s (gasp!) starting to happen less often than I like. I recently played through several sides of a fabulous collection of Schubert Lieder by the legendary baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau with the pianist Gerald Moore on a DG box set. Yes, you have to get up every 20 minutes to change the sides. How retro! But it keeps you engaged. Then there’s the beautiful album notes, each song meticulously explained with wonderful translations and background information. The analog mastering is very lovely and both voice and piano sound natural with no digital harshness.

We are all regressing to a world where AI algorithms decide what we watch on streaming media like Netflix, what music we hear on Spotify or Roon Radio, what news we consume each day and bit by bit (no pun intended!), our likes are being sculpted for us by machines. It’s a dystopian future but one that’s hard to prevent from happening….

 

Points taken, but there are always counterpoints.

My work day has me running around like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, sometimes with similar consequences. When I’m finally able to settle into my chair, I’m not seeking challenges. AI is a great way to shutdown the decision making machinery. I would contend, based on my own history and patterns, that the manual form of hunting and gathering media to spin yields less variety than the AI method. With AI, I actually discover something new once in a while. When bored with the path provided, I select a new seed, and proceed from there. So it is a selection process that carries a series of results. It’s a variable process that I prefer to making playlists. This form of AI is just library management. AI for dynamic content like news feeds is scary and unfortunately real.

For me, a server is a lifestyle choice more than a SQ choice. If the best servers haven’t eclipsed the performance of the best transports yet, and that’s a big if, just wait a few more days. The noise issues in servers can be mitigated. The current leaders in this field have shown the ability and desire to push the performance envelope. I’m done with transports as a form of entertainment.

 

I hear you. But I couldn’t take this step personally. The day I let an algorithm decide what music I listen to would be the day I stop listening to music. May that day never come!

 

I hear you. But I couldn’t take this step personally. The day I let an algorithm decide what music I listen to would be the day I stop listening to music. May that day never come!

You are a man in control. I’m married for 25 years. Suppose that makes AI easier to swallow.

 

Let’s try another analogy. You go to a restaurant to eat. Would you let the waiter (or waitress) or, shudder, an AI algorithm, decide what you’d like to eat? Or would you look at the menu and decide for yourself?

 

Let’s try another analogy. You go to a restaurant to eat. Would you let the waiter (or waitress) or, shudder, an AI algorithm, decide what you’d like to eat? Or would you look at the menu and decide for yourself?

If the restaurant is one I haven’t been to before I will take someone’s recommendation. If I am familiar with the menu I would decide myself