How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

Esoteric-CD.jpg
There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
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Two of my Boston area audio buddies still spin CDs and they claim it is for sonic reasons. I choose vinyl for sonic reasons. We all make our choices based on our personal priorities.

Ron started this thread, not because he’s interested in buying a transport, but because he thought people would be interested in discussing the topic.

People seem to do what they want to do and others can’t really convinced them to do otherwise.
 
i just cannot see CD's having any staying power outside of people who already have a wall full of it.

a CD tray opening and closing (or watching the time counter screen) is simply not very inspiring

Guess I'm a relic. I bought a Neodio Origine S2 CD player in August , and actively buy new music on CD which sounds very good through it. The Origine does allow for a streamer to be connected to its DAC; maybe down the road but I'm not there yet.
 
files are way more simple than discs, ways to play files way more simple too. the idea of a plastic silver disc in your hand is not sexy.

vinyl had culture buzz going for it, the idea of vinyl is/was appealing, it's depicted in a positive light in media, and a 'sound' people really got into. artists embraced vinyl. CD sound is not different enough from files or streaming to resonate with users. only us angel on heads of pins counters hear the differences.

i just cannot see CD's having any staying power outside of people who already have a wall full of it.

a CD tray opening and closing (or watching the time counter screen) is simply not very inspiring. :rolleyes:

OTOH the Roon home screen is awesome.

There were predictions about the future of vinyl similar to your predictions about CDs. I would not bet the future will not repeat. We will see how the marketplace goes. There were tons of records made and likewise for CDs -- lots of people with walls of CDs, including yourself. We'll see what happens.

As to one of your points...

Bits on a wire or over the airwaves are not somehow "more simple" than files on a disc. A compact disc and the memory or buffers in a file server or streamer are just containers. Some containers are more or less fragile than other containers. The internet itself is still fragile. Don't forget to renew your anti-virus software on your streamer/server.

If only angels on heads of pins counters hear the differences, perhaps they are the only angel's who can understand the graph this thread asks for. But I have no dog in the streaming vs CD sound quality debate. I'm happy the format squabbles are pretty much over for vinyl. :D
 
Personally I don't miss working hard to try to find music that I like and going through the whole religious like process to find and play music.
I think the greatest thing ever in audio is the ability to find almost anything you might want to listen to with ease so I CAN ENJOY the music! I am not fan of the process. I was there and did that and found no joy in purchasing all this software that mostly disappointed me in its sound quality or performances. I bought all that stuff based on a cut on FM radio which was far from satisfying outside of my car.

I think what you are saying is what I thought was the answer to the thread's question all along, namely: it depends on the recording.
 
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(...)
As to one of your points...

Bits on a wire or over the airwaves are not somehow "more simple" than files on a disc. A compact disc and the memory or buffers in a file server or streamer are just containers. Some containers are more or less fragile than other containers. The internet itself is still fragile. Don't forget to renew your anti-virus software on your streamer/server.

Fragility of the internet does not affect the integrity of data. Current digital data systems are bit exact. We must look for justifications of our preferences elsewhere.

If only angels on heads of pins counters hear the differences, perhaps they are the only angel's who can understand the graph this thread asks for. But I have no dog in the streaming vs CD sound quality debate. I'm happy the format squabbles are pretty much over for vinyl. :D

Yes, you can focus on originals/clicks and pops versus noiseless re-issues or the horrible consequences of 180g vinyl ... ;)

Sorry, I do not consider our discussions on digital format as squabbles. There is still a lot to be discussed and understood.
 
Sure, I can appreciate that. Like everyone else, I’m a fan of Roon, which is why I was one of the first to get their lifetime subscription. I marvel at the sheer choice available at one’s fingertips. When I was just getting into classical music, 35 years back, I was lucky enough to live in Westchester county, a suburb of NYC with a plethora of great FM classical music stations, all of which are now history. They had a diverse mix of live concerts, operas and mostly vinyl based playback that gave me a wide exposure to new material. It was a time when audio mags like TAS had an excellent collection of music reviews and you learned a lot about music from those reviews as well. Roon Radio can resemble that to some extent, although I find AI algorithms notoriously inept at recommendations of any kind (movies, music, etc.). These algorithms couldn’t tell you a major scale from a minor and are based on simple toy statistical models (I.e., if x% of listeners who liked Mozart listened to Beethoven as well, recommend one to a listener who listened to the other — it’s not like the algorithm actually has any clue who Mozart was). In stark contrast, the FM radio station hosts often were highly knowledgeable music critics who chose their programs thoughtfully and would explain why they are selecting an album). BBC Radio 3 is the closest one has left to what we used to enjoy in the good old days of FM radio (which of course you can stream on Roon).

It‘s very hard to explain to folks now used to streaming millions of tracks from Spotify or Tidal or Qobuz with a single mouse click what it meant to make up a list of albums to buy, drive many miles to a record store to buy them, come back home and listen to them — it was like opening presents at Christmas. You had to work hard to build a library. Now it’s point and click. Presto, you have a billion albums at your command. Where’s the fun in that? You didn’t have to work hard to assemble that library. It’s served to you on a platter. To me, in a perverse kind of way, it destroys the whole experience. When you don’t have to work hard to get something, it’s in a way less enjoyable.

But, there’s no going back. Just like when I was a boy growing up, I enjoyed seeing many legendary Hollywood movies in 70mm in a big theater. Now we consume movies on phone screens where everything is reduced to a matchbox size. The experience is not the same.
Your simple characterization of the Roon Algorithm is simply untrue. I’ve discovered many esoteric music connections in classical, jazz and otherwise that I bet even your favorite FM disc jockey from the hazy nostalgic past wouldn’t have a clue of.

I love and miss the old days of FM radio, but that’s no reason to dump on something that is really wonderful in the here and now.
 
We use a EMM Labs SACD (TX2 Reference Transport). It’s excellent. However, I’ve heard the Vitus MP-T201 Mk II CD Transport and the Kalista DreamPlay X SACD. They are a step above. If you desire the best (at least to my ears) try one of these … We will be getting one of these ….


.
 
Personally I don't miss working hard to try to find music that I like and going through the whole religious like process to find and play music.
I think the greatest thing ever in audio is the ability to find almost anything you might want to listen to with ease so I CAN ENJOY the music! I am not fan of the process. I was there and did that and found no joy in purchasing all this software that mostly disappointed me in its sound quality or performances. I bought all that stuff based on a cut on FM radio which was far from satisfying outside of my car.
Streaming has allowed me to find so much music I was either unaware of or totally missed in every field. You can certainly grow a library and playlists for all kinds of music with no financial or time related penalties. If you dont like it you just move on. I give many examples at shows or in my showroom of music and musicians that I would have never found without Roon or Qobuz and I know this is a very controversial statement but with a Wadax server and system I don't feel I loose anything. Those who don't live with one truly don't get it.
Technology is always pros and cons but for the availablity to the world of music its amazing.
I know many here are collectors and that is fine if that is what you like to do but as I have said before it has nothing to do with enjoying music. One does not need to be a collector to enjoy.
Good point. There is one advantage to discs though…you can find the best masterings a bit more easily. Some of the mastering on Qobuz and Tidal can be mediocre.
 
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@Audiocrack
That is interesting. Is your 1" copper platform a D.I.Y. effort or a purchased product and what is the rationale for its sonic contributions? Are the footers beneath the platform or between the Zanden and the platform? Curious as I'm unaware of any copper isolation/vibrational control products. There's always something new to learn.
Charles
Hello Charles, may I refer you to the La Assoluta thread in which I described in more detail my ‘copper adventure’? It is a DIY effort: the 99,95% pure and oxygen free copper platforms of one inch / 2.5 cm thickness were (only) meticulously sanded (no coating) so that they look beautiful. In close cooperation with Miguel of Tripoint Audio and Lukasz of LDMS I opted for pure copper platforms for a. their sonic qualities, b. Copper is a material that can be grounded excellently (eg my - grounded - Kondo ((pre)amps are made out of copper while all the platforms themselves will also be grounded eventually) and c. Due to their weight / mass they provide excellent isolation.

The new Hifistay Absolute Point footers are placed directly under the Zanden 2000-p cd-transport and are placed themselves on a copper platform. The Absolute Point footers are (beautifully) made out of stainless steel: you can add caps to these footers so that your audio component is (only) directly in contact with these caps (and with the caps they sound to my ears significantly better than without). Currently these caps are (also) made outbof stainless steel but I hope to try out some caps made out of pure copper in the near future.

I only mentioned the copper slabs and Hifistay Absolute Point footers because I was amazed how impressive cd-replay can actually sound with a relative old cd-transport (although in combination with an expensive and relatively new dac: Wadax reference dac).
 
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Let’s try another analogy. You go to a restaurant to eat. Would you let the waiter (or waitress) or, shudder, an AI algorithm, decide what you’d like to eat? Or would you look at the menu and decide for yourself?
We all have our pet peeves. Mine is the smart transmission in my car. My ultimate driving machine, isn‘t, when it thinks seventh gear is the best economy for crossing a busy intersection.
 
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it's all about references. my perspective is based on hours of compares in my own system references every day.
performance can be very fine and still not make the grade when directly compared. so i'm not inferring that there are not excellent sounding disc players out there. is that Marantz better than the Wadax transport? not likely very close. which for Wadax is not as good as their server. yet.

forgetting Ron's budget perspective, and his limited music needs, when we talk whether files and streaming can be equal or better than the best disc playing, it's people making system building decisions on where they are headed for the best performance. and whether they want to be limited to discs or open to files and streaming.

some will say "there is just something about discs that is better". we are all entitled to our own opinions. but it's just rhetoric.....until.....they tell me about a specific compare. then we know about that case.

certainly price points do enter into it. and i'd completely agree that it takes a pretty good server/dac doing files and streaming to surpass a good disc player. where is that break point? that's a good discussion. i'm deferring to Wadax for my case. since my dac/server is their target. they will answer that question.

the answer to Ron's question is "it depends".

Respectfully:

If you want to know how your wadax server compares with cd players then there is an easy way to find out. Compare it with a cd player. A vintage philips/marantz, a jays audio, or something similar quality cd-only will do.

If you don’t want to know, then dont do the comparison. Stick to assumptions, likelihoods and hearsay from your wadax dealer.

Ps! The wadax transport is not a cd only player. Its a multi media transport. A dvd player of sorts. Nicely wrapped and finite element analysed — but still a dvd player. Those dont have the best reputation when it comes to acting as a cd transport.

Pps! Im sure youd be able to borrow a cd player if you wanted to. Id be happy to lend you one of mine.
 
Respectfully:

If you want to know how your wadax server compares with cd players then there is an easy way to find out. Compare it with a cd player. A vintage philips/marantz, a jays audio, or something similar quality cd-only will do.

If you don’t want to know, then dont do the comparison. Stick to assumptions, likelihoods and hearsay from your wadax dealer.

Ps! The wadax transport is not a cd only player. Its a multi media transport. A dvd player of sorts. Nicely wrapped and finite element analysed — but still a dvd player. Those dont have the best reputation when it comes to acting as a cd transport.

Pps! Im sure youd be able to borrow a cd player if you wanted to. Id be happy to lend you one of mine.
i have an Oppo UDT-203 now if i'm in the mood for discs. it does not suck. i had a Playback Designs MPS-5 for 9 years, which was good. and a Aqua La Diva transport with an Aqua Formula dac a few years ago. also good. so i have a base line knowledge of a good CD player in my system. and how those compared to my references at that time. and how those references compare to my current ones.

and my conclusion is that none of those disc experiences enter the realm of my Wadax Ref dac and sever with files or streaming.

my point is not that CD's don't sound wonderful. they do. but files ripped from CD's are as good. so why should i mess with discs? unless i can't buy the file. or it's not streamed. or i'm hooked on the muscle memory adrenaline rush from loading CD's.

but i applaud disc enjoyers.....knock yourself out. it's music. but let's not claim the high road of better sound with discs. it's simply one way to get your music. no worries.
 
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Fragility of the internet does not affect the integrity of data. Current digital data systems are bit exact. We must look for justifications of our preferences elsewhere.

Assuming the internet is working. A file that cannot be streamed has no data on the receiving end - a non existent file has no integrity. I don't need to justify my preferences nor look for a justification - they are my preferences. I'm talking about the pros or cons of the mechanisms associated to different digital delivery technologies.
 
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Your simple characterization of the Roon Algorithm is simply untrue. I’ve discovered many esoteric music connections in classical, jazz and otherwise that I bet even your favorite FM disc jockey from the hazy nostalgic past wouldn’t have a clue of.

I love and miss the old days of FM radio, but that’s no reason to dump on something that is really wonderful in the here and now.

I don't know the technology of Roon nor very little about streaming services. Can I stream Roon in my car?
 
I think what you are saying is what I thought was the answer to the thread's question all along, namely: it depends on the recording.
Yep, no matter what music material people choose, it all starts at the very beginning either in the recording studio or the recording equipment (incl. microphones etc.) at a live event, thereafter once the musician(s) have finished playing the input of the recorded sound from the sound production / mixing engineers.

If you did a risk assessment on how good the quality of music you are actually going to listen to from the production of the music all the way to what you hear out of a speaker or headphone, you will find the risk of not having repeatable high quality sound to be very high, as there are so many variables (both dynamic and static).

The amount of variability I have heard just from using the same source, same music producer, same LP or CD or online downloaded digital file etc. from music being produced by different companies at different times is huge !
 
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@Audiocrack
Thanks for taking time to provide an informative reply. This is intriguing. Is there risk of oxidation of the untreated/uncoated copper platform as time passes?
Charles
 
I don't know the technology of Roon nor very little about streaming services. Can I stream Roon in my car?

I'm in the same "boat" as you. I googled your question and found this :

 
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@Audiocrack
Thanks for taking time to provide an informative reply. This is intriguing. Is there risk of oxidation of the untreated/uncoated copper platform as time passes?
Charles
Yes Charles, there is. That is of course the reason why almost all (or maybe all?) audio manufacturers add a coating to their copper products/chassis (including my Kondo (pre)amps). So I definitely need to polish these copper platforms now and then: I suppose that is the price one must be willing to pay for ‘copper purity’.
 

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