How Good a CD Transport is Required to Sound Better than Streaming?

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There seems to be a fairly solid consensus (Lucasz Ficus, LL21, Al M, etc.) that CD playback or computer file playback, or perhaps both, sound better than streaming (assuming, of course, that all other variables, including the DAC, are held constant).

But I assume that one cannot assume that any device that can spin a CD necessarily will achieve better sound quality than will streaming.

So how good a CD transport does one need to achieve CD playback which sounds better than streaming? Where do the lines (rising sound quality of better transport and streaming sound quality) cross?
 
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I am a big of CD Playback and there are some CD-Drives which can outperform even some of the best streamers.,
but in the 1000 to 1500 range it is difficult to find some good.

From my experience I always liked the following components as CD Drive:

- Audiomeca Mephisto I and II

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- Roksan Attest I and II

ROKSAN ATTESSA CD PLAYER c.2012 refurbished with new laser head.jpgs-l300.jpg



- CEC TL 51
and derivatives

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- Wadia 850, 860, and many other from the time (to be used as CD Drive)



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Just to mention, I have spent the past 4 years building a system for local and remote streaming. Since that time, every penny of my discretionary hi-fi budget has gone into improving the network. Some of the improvements have been jawdropping and all have way more than justified their asking price, which is why I‘ve kept on investing. I have yet to discover any law of diminishing returns, so despite spending a lot more than the cost of a Taiko Extreme on my network I have yet to find a point where further improvements seem not to be possible.
I am familiar with some of the harsher sounding CDs from years past, but to a great extent, that harshness has eventually resolved into extra layers of detail, especially related to ambient clues like early reflections captured together with the recording.
Most of the ‘bad‘ recordings I now hear relate either to poor decisions on spatial aspects of the recording, where multiple musicians seem to emanate from exactly the same point in space, which sounds odd, or to poorly recorded dynamics, which instantly label what I’m listening to as a recording. The best recordings seem to transport you to the recording venue and communicate the music’s intense emotional message
The point of this post is simply to illustrate that ’streaming’ is not something that has a well defined quality maximum, ceiling or identity. The better job the network does of cleaning and refining the data stream, the better the resulting sound quality and musical presentation.
 
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I am a big of CD Playback and there are some CD-Drives which can outperform even some of the best streamers.,
but in the 1000 to 1500 range it is difficult to find some good.

In fact we are comparing apples with oranges - CD drives are limited to redbook and most of what I listen today in Qobuz is HighRez. And IMO the best of physical media is SACD, not CD.

From my experience I always liked the following components as CD Drive:

- Audiomeca Mephisto I and II

View attachment 100630View attachment 100631




- Roksan Attest I and II

View attachment 100632View attachment 100633



- CEC TL 51
and derivatives

View attachment 100634


- Wadia 850, 860, and many other from the time (to be used as CD Drive)



View attachment 100635

The same way tape or vinyl add artifacts that increase our listening enjoyment, high-end digital designers had to add something to the data stream to make it more enjoyable to please some audiophile preferences - and they found that the timing of the SPDIF channel was a great place to manipulate it, either electronically or using the noise signature of the CD mechanisms. Most of the best known great sounding CD spinners of the past had poor jitter measurements.
 
Wadia used TEAC VRDS as drives. Looks like a cheap toy compared to Sony and the best Philips.
casual readers note;

important to point out that 'Wadia' is not 'Wadax'. Wadia is a company based in the USA. Wadax is based in Spain.

Wadia no longer makes a transport. Wadax currently makes a transport.

just say'n.
 
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This is a slippery slope. Roon or XDMS is hugely more convenient than playing vinyl or finding a CD in a large collection — I can relate since I’ve long ago given up hope of organizing my physical media. Where this road leads to is having algorithms make your listening choices for you. Pretty soon, why even bother taking the trouble to select an album to play from Qobuz or Tidal or your ripped collection. Surely, Roon Radio can do that for you. Let AI do all the thinking for you while you sip your wine. No thinking needed anymore. Roon Radio can play uninterrupted 24/7. But then it becomes background schmaltz that you’re not even paying attention to anymore. It’s elevator music.

As retro as it might sound, I like the physical effort in playing vinyl or a physical disc, even if that’s (gasp!) starting to happen less often than I like. I recently played through several sides of a fabulous collection of Schubert Lieder by the legendary baritone Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau with the pianist Gerald Moore on a DG box set. Yes, you have to get up every 20 minutes to change the sides. How retro! But it keeps you engaged. Then there’s the beautiful album notes, each song meticulously explained with wonderful translations and background information. The analog mastering is very lovely and both voice and piano sound natural with no digital harshness.

We are all regressing to a world where AI algorithms decide what we watch on streaming media like Netflix, what music we hear on Spotify or Roon Radio, what news we consume each day and bit by bit (no pun intended!), our likes are being sculpted for us by machines. It’s a dystopian future but one that’s hard to prevent from happening….
This particular criticism of streaming or "non-physical media" always strikes me as a little peculiar.

Maybe I'm a minority, but the popular cliche of the soporific, chair-bound audiophile mashing his iPad doesn't fit my reality. (My iPad is on a table away from the chair anyway.)

If one enjoys the physical media experience, that's great. But as is so often the case on forums, one's enjoyment of their experience seems to be linked to putting down someone else's chosen experience.

Before I started streaming music, I already had a pretty good background in music appreciation across diverse genres. The streaming experience has blown that up to another level. A.I. doesn't control my music exploration. It gives a gentle suggestion. Sometimes I let it point me in a direction that can lead to fascinating branches off the music tree. Or I ignore it and go my own way.
 
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occasionally i turn the system on and Roon radio is playing as i forgot to hit stop or fell asleep. but otherwise never did the 'radio' thing with intent. i see that as a 'car' type thing. in my listening room i choose the music. OTOH i love streaming Roon artist info and discography at the bottom as well as related music and related artists. it is such a rich assortment of pathways to explore. how could anyone not value that compliment to the reproduced music experience? the musical world is my oyster.

it's not that i constantly live in that world of choices and exploration, but when the mood strikes me it's just the best thing and very satisfying to use. and the Wadax level of streaming and Roon optimization, just makes it that much better.

i have a parallel world of my 3000 classical pressing Lp collection acquisition last year. these are all upstairs and organized. i can go up and grab 5, or 10 or 20 and spend a few weeks cleaning and listening, reading jackets and looking on line for artist and discography info.

is one experience better than the other?

glad i have both. why not have both?
 
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What do you mean? Do you mean other competing, possibly better, transports coming out?
the relevance of three year old digital format comments are marginal. tip top file and streaming performance has leaped relatively. read Roy's recent Wadax comments if you want to know his current views on the various digital formats.

i'm referring to the top level of servers and data path performance.

maybe more main stream high end file and streaming performance is more all over the board relative to discs. so many results are expected.

might better transports appear? unlikely; more that previous sources for transports are diminishing, so new one's must be found. not to say for sure better. but could be.
 
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I discovered lots of great new music via roon radio :cool:
Sure, I can appreciate that. Like everyone else, I’m a fan of Roon, which is why I was one of the first to get their lifetime subscription. I marvel at the sheer choice available at one’s fingertips. When I was just getting into classical music, 35 years back, I was lucky enough to live in Westchester county, a suburb of NYC with a plethora of great FM classical music stations, all of which are now history. They had a diverse mix of live concerts, operas and mostly vinyl based playback that gave me a wide exposure to new material. It was a time when audio mags like TAS had an excellent collection of music reviews and you learned a lot about music from those reviews as well. Roon Radio can resemble that to some extent, although I find AI algorithms notoriously inept at recommendations of any kind (movies, music, etc.). These algorithms couldn’t tell you a major scale from a minor and are based on simple toy statistical models (I.e., if x% of listeners who liked Mozart listened to Beethoven as well, recommend one to a listener who listened to the other — it’s not like the algorithm actually has any clue who Mozart was). In stark contrast, the FM radio station hosts often were highly knowledgeable music critics who chose their programs thoughtfully and would explain why they are selecting an album). BBC Radio 3 is the closest one has left to what we used to enjoy in the good old days of FM radio (which of course you can stream on Roon).

It‘s very hard to explain to folks now used to streaming millions of tracks from Spotify or Tidal or Qobuz with a single mouse click what it meant to make up a list of albums to buy, drive many miles to a record store to buy them, come back home and listen to them — it was like opening presents at Christmas. You had to work hard to build a library. Now it’s point and click. Presto, you have a billion albums at your command. Where’s the fun in that? You didn’t have to work hard to assemble that library. It’s served to you on a platter. To me, in a perverse kind of way, it destroys the whole experience. When you don’t have to work hard to get something, it’s in a way less enjoyable.

But, there’s no going back. Just like when I was a boy growing up, I enjoyed seeing many legendary Hollywood movies in 70mm in a big theater. Now we consume movies on phone screens where everything is reduced to a matchbox size. The experience is not the same.
 
Sure, I can appreciate that. Like everyone else, I’m a fan of Roon, which is why I was one of the first to get their lifetime subscription. I marvel at the sheer choice available at one’s fingertips. When I was just getting into classical music, 35 years back, I was lucky enough to live in Westchester county, a suburb of NYC with a plethora of great FM classical music stations, all of which are now history. They had a diverse mix of live concerts, operas and mostly vinyl based playback that gave me a wide exposure to new material. It was a time when audio mags like TAS had an excellent collection of music reviews and you learned a lot about music from those reviews as well. Roon Radio can resemble that to some extent, although I find AI algorithms notoriously inept at recommendations of any kind (movies, music, etc.). These algorithms couldn’t tell you a major scale from a minor and are based on simple toy statistical models (I.e., if x% of listeners who liked Mozart listened to Beethoven as well, recommend one to a listener who listened to the other — it’s not like the algorithm actually has any clue who Mozart was). In stark contrast, the FM radio station hosts often were highly knowledgeable music critics who chose their programs thoughtfully and would explain why they are selecting an album). BBC Radio 3 is the closest one has left to what we used to enjoy in the good old days of FM radio (which of course you can stream on Roon).

It‘s very hard to explain to folks now used to streaming millions of tracks from Spotify or Tidal or Qobuz with a single mouse click what it meant to make up a list of albums to buy, drive many miles to a record store to buy them, come back home and listen to them — it was like opening presents at Christmas. You had to work hard to build a library. Now it’s point and click. Presto, you have a billion albums at your command. Where’s the fun in that? You didn’t have to work hard to assemble that library. It’s served to you on a platter. To me, in a perverse kind of way, it destroys the whole experience. When you don’t have to work hard to get something, it’s in a way less enjoyable.

But, there’s no going back. Just like when I was a boy growing up, I enjoyed seeing many legendary Hollywood movies in 70mm in a big theater. Now we consume movies on phone screens where everything is reduced to a matchbox size. The experience is not the same.
Personally I don't miss working hard to try to find music that I like and going through the whole religious like process to find and play music.
I think the greatest thing ever in audio is the ability to find almost anything you might want to listen to with ease so I CAN ENJOY the music! I am not fan of the process. I was there and did that and found no joy in purchasing all this software that mostly disappointed me in its sound quality or performances. I bought all that stuff based on a cut on FM radio which was far from satisfying outside of my car.
Streaming has allowed me to find so much music I was either unaware of or totally missed in every field. You can certainly grow a library and playlists for all kinds of music with no financial or time related penalties. If you dont like it you just move on. I give many examples at shows or in my showroom of music and musicians that I would have never found without Roon or Qobuz and I know this is a very controversial statement but with a Wadax server and system I don't feel I loose anything. Those who don't live with one truly don't get it.
Technology is always pros and cons but for the availablity to the world of music its amazing.
I know many here are collectors and that is fine if that is what you like to do but as I have said before it has nothing to do with enjoying music. One does not need to be a collector to enjoy.
 
Personally I don't miss working hard to try to find music that I like and going through the whole religious like process to find and play music.
I think the greatest thing ever in audio is the ability to find almost anything you might want to listen to with ease so I CAN ENJOY the music! I am not fan of the process. I was there and did that and found no joy in purchasing all this software that mostly disappointed me in its sound quality or performances. I bought all that stuff based on a cut on FM radio which was far from satisfying outside of my car.
Streaming has allowed me to find so much music I was either unaware of or totally missed in every field. You can certainly grow a library and playlists for all kinds of music with no financial or time related penalties. If you dont like it you just move on. I give many examples at shows or in my showroom of music and musicians that I would have never found without Roon or Qobuz and I know this is a very controversial statement but with a Wadax server and system I don't feel I loose anything. Those who don't live with one truly don't get it.
Technology is always pros and cons but for the availablity to the world of music its amazing.
I know many here are collectors and that is fine if that is what you like to do but as I have said before it has nothing to do with enjoying music. One does not need to be a collector to enjoy.
I’m glad you brought out the most important factor in all this discussion: the enjoyment of music. To me, when I listen to the greatest jazz musicians of the 20th century — Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ella Fitzgerald etc. — or the greatest popular singers — Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash etc. — or the greatest rock and roll — The Beatles, Bob Dylan etc. — an inescapable fact is that their greatest albums were recorded in analog, in mono, and meant to be played back on vinyl. I find the digital remastering of any of these albums on Roon via Qobuz or Tidal, even played back on a very high quality tubed DAC, my Lampizator Pacific, a pale imitation of what these albums sound like on vinyl on my restored Garrard 301 with a Miyajima Zero Infinity mono cartridge. So, for me personally, it is integral to my enjoyment of the greatest musical riches of the 20th century in these musical genres to hear them as they were intended: on mono and on vinyl. Much as I like my Lampi Pacifi, it is simply no match for the Garrard 301/Miyajima Zero cartridge. I recently bought a whole pile of Time Life Big Band music from the 1940-1950s or even earlier and it is stunning how good these old mono recordings sound. If I try one of these on Roon, in 2 minutes, I stop it. I can’t bear to hear the screechy sound that emanates from Roon on these great albums. If you haven’t heard Frank Sinatra on mono on a great turntable and mono cartridge, you haven’t heard how good his voice sounds. The Roon reproduction is a grotesque imitation of the original vinyl sound.

That‘s why for me vinyl will always continue to be a source of musical enjoyment. If I was forced on to a Roon diet, I’d stop listening to these great albums, so intolerable is the reproduction quality on digital.
 
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I cannot answer Ron’s (opening) question in this thread. What I can say that I actually forgot how good cd-reply can sound after being ‘spoiled’ for quite a while by top notch (locally stored) high res file reply. However, lately I placed a pure copper platform (no coating was added) of 1 inch thick under my Zanden 2000-p transport and added the latest top of the line Hifistay Absolute Point footers under this cd-transport (these footers are not yet officially launched by Hifistay so I am currently using prototypes). I must say that my (good) cd’s never sounded better and that playing them actually provided great pleasure.
 
What do you mean? Do you mean other competing, possibly better, transports coming out?

In stereo sound reproduction it is always possible to develop a "possibly better" device - it is intrinsic to the format. But considering that CD data existed in a file before being burned in a physical format we can ask what is the point of developing a new transport if we already have SOTA servers/streamers.
 
what is the point of developing a new transport if we already have SOTA servers/streamers.
...that is an excellent, straight-forward point. Surely, not everyone streams or wants to, so there must be a population for a better player for a big CD collection, and/or the desire to have physical media. But you don't need to anymore.

I certainly did not think I would really enjoy streaming and server-delivered music as much as I do. And I am surprised that it only took six months, perhaps a year, to completely revise my thinking on physical CDs vs. files.

I still have my Luxman CD/SACD machine, and collection, but I don't use it very much.

That said, last week I was driving by the absolutely awesome "Record Archive" and thought I should really stop in. I bought three jazz CDs for five bucks each, and the new "Revolver" disc.

I went home and ripped the discs, and later listened to the files. And later still, to the discs. Sweet.

I deliberately *do not* run my player through the MSB Reference dac; I leave it connected via the Luxman c900 pre to the m900 amps. I actually enjoy the Luxman voiced sound.

I think the Extreme/MSB Ref dac, over a highly optimized network and power infrastructure, sounds better than the CD spinner...but not by a lot. I could be happy either way, but hey, anything worth doing is worth over-doing to extract the last bit of sonic juice.
 
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@Audiocrack
That is interesting. Is your 1" copper platform a D.I.Y. effort or a purchased product and what is the rationale for its sonic contributions? Are the footers beneath the platform or between the Zanden and the platform? Curious as I'm unaware of any copper isolation/vibrational control products. There's always something new to learn.
Charles
 
might better transports appear? unlikely; more that previous sources for transports are diminishing, so new one's must be found. not to say for sure better. but could be.

As happened to vinyl some time after the promotion of a new source/format/technology, could there be a Compact Disc resurgence with advances in transport and possibly DACs? The simplicity of permanent physical media and a single box player has, I suspect, an appeal similar to the (somewhat more complicated) turntable and vinyl appeal. One mark of technology overthrow is the near elimination of the prior technology -- and that has not happened yet to either vinyl or CDs.
 
As happened to vinyl some time after the promotion of a new source/format/technology, could there be a Compact Disc resurgence with advances in transport and possibly DACs? The simplicity of permanent physical media and a single box player has, I suspect, an appeal similar to the (somewhat more complicated) turntable and vinyl appeal. One mark of technology overthrow is the near elimination of the prior technology -- and that has not happened yet to either vinyl or CDs.
files are way more simple than discs, ways to play files way more simple too. the idea of a plastic silver disc in your hand is not sexy.

vinyl had culture buzz going for it, the idea of vinyl is/was appealing, it's depicted in a positive light in media, and a 'sound' people really got into. artists embraced vinyl. CD sound is not different enough from files or streaming to resonate with users. only us angel on heads of pins counters hear the differences.

i just cannot see CD's having any staying power outside of people who already have a wall full of it.

a CD tray opening and closing (or watching the time counter screen) is simply not very inspiring. :rolleyes:

OTOH the Roon home screen is awesome.
 
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