How important is the room?

[fas42]

One again I would respectfully disagree as would IMO most everyone here.

A good room can make midfi sound wonderful

Post all the analogies you want Frank but the room IMO is #1

Steve, as in that exchange with Davey, I agree 100% that a conventional system can sound very impressive in a good room. However, in my musical journey, my intention is to be able to enjoy, truly enjoy, recordings of less than a stellar quality. And I have heard in rooms treated to the maximum, that "difficult" recordings still do NOT work. Hence my focus on the electronics ...

To continue the analogy, you'll enjoy the journey in a brilliant car, even on a badly engineered, beat up road; a mediocre car, or a Ferrari whose suspension is not set up correctly will make the trip on anything else than top notch bitumen an unpleasant experience ...

Frank

 

[Steve williams]

Steve you are too kind and modest let's remove the "IMO"

"Room is #1"

Perhaps Frank might consider room treatment in his house. I would bet that there would be no need for soldering fuses to sockets and claiming you can make a bad recording sound good. He might for once in his life put his feet up and enjoy the music

Frank....The room is #1

 

[NorthStar]

Frank, I once drove a badly beaten horse on a countryside trail of the Appalachian mountains.
That was in Quebec, where I come from originally.

The horse was truly bad, but the trail was the most enjoyable ride I ever had.

* The Room is EVERYTHING! :b

 

[Gregadd]

What's more important? The wine or the bottle?

 

[DonH50]

Don,

I also agree with your scale of priorities, as it seems logical, although I do not know exactly with what I mean with it. Sometimes I feel like if we are asking what is the most important thing in driving - the tires, the motor or the road?

It seems to me there is a real risk in allocating so much value in the room. Although most of us feel they are able to appreciate the quality of speakers and electronics, there are no standards for small room quality based on measurements at reasonable cost that do not rely on subjective expertise.

Saying it in different words, do you think that If we ask WBF members to supply measured evidence of the quality of their rooms they will be able to provide it?

Thanks!

That is my priority; says nothing about relative effort, money, etc. spent on each. Saying room is #1 does not mean speakers are unimportant, for instance.

An inexpensive measurement microphone and USB preamp can be obtained for under $100 USD. Software like REW is free. You already have a PC. I do not see the cost as exorbitant for anyone. As for room treatment, I have far more than most (for various reasons) and it is perhaps 20% of the total system cost. Say around 10% for most folk and I think the benefit far outweighs the cost. Or, the gain is much more than the pain. Placing it #1 in importance does not mean it is the most expensive part of my system. I too believe in balance and achieving the most bang for the buck (and effort).

Like Steve, I suspect a number of WBF folk can provide room measurements.

 

[JackD201]

The wine. The chicken too.

 

[DonH50]

What's more important? The wine or the bottle?

To me, the wine is the source material, which can trump all else. But, we have no control over that (except to buy it or not).

I have no idea what the bottle is. I do know wine without a bottle is a mess. Unless it's from a box.

 

[Ron Party]

Just an aside: the room and the speakers IMO must be considered as one. In so doing I would added about 15% to the range previously posted by Bruce.

 

[NorthStar]

What's more important? The wine or the bottle?

Without the bottle there is simply no wine. :b

 

[NorthStar]

Just an aside: the room and the speakers IMO must be considered as one. In so doing I would added about 15% to the range previously posted by Bruce.

You sir, Ron, got that one right! ...It is a mutual union, balance, marriage of the total harmonies.

* A pair of high-end loudspeakers are at their very best in a fully tuned room perfectly & acoustically corrected for them.
It is the exact same thing with sex (the best), and with any great (best) life's relationship.

 

[fas42]

Perhaps Frank might consider room treatment in his house. I would bet that there would be no need for soldering fuses to sockets and claiming you can make a bad recording sound good. He might for once in his life put his feet up and enjoy the music

Frank....The room is #1

Unfortunately, very unfortunately, I believe not. Not for me at least. I can hear a high quality volume potentiometer in a good quality preamp degrade after adjusting the level without even listening for the artefacts. Once you're aware of the damage done to the music by less than optimum circuitry it's very hard to remove these effects from your hearing space. Like having a persistent rattle from the dashboard in your Mercedes: doesn't matter how good the car performs, that extra noise is really, really going to bug you.

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

Being unfaithful to the hypothetical is a concession that it leads you to a undesirable conclusion.

I think rather that what is more important is our mastery or attention to each link in the audio chain.

The room is the link handled by the the person lease qualified. That explains why it is often mishandled or ignored.

 

[mep]

Greg-Did you and Tom go to school together by any chance?

 

[Steve williams]

Unfortunately, very unfortunately, I believe not. Not for me at least. I can hear a high quality volume potentiometer in a good quality preamp degrade after adjusting the level without even listening for the artefacts. Once you're aware of the damage done to the music by less than optimum circuitry it's very hard to remove these effects from your hearing space. Like having a persistent rattle from the dashboard in your Mercedes: doesn't matter how good the car performs, that extra noise is really, really going to bug you.

Frank

Frank

your ears belong in the Smithsonian

 

[DaveyF]

That's a good one Steve, LOL.

Frank has IMO a different frame of reference than most of the rest of us. Contrary to his claims, every a'phile I have ever known in over 30 years of being in this hobby, agrees that the room is the #1 factor in your sound. PERIOD.
The ONLY way I will say that the room is irrelevant is IF i am listening to a headphone system, which if i am not mistaken is exactly what Frank listens to, or something like that

 

[fas42]

The ONLY way I will say that the room is irrelevant is IF i am listening to a headphone system, which if i am not mistaken is exactly what Frank listens to, or something like that

There may be something in what you say, Davey. I have tried very good quality headphones, by Sennheiser, and it doesn't do it for me: I get more sound, more recreation of the recording's acoustic from the speakers. I wouldn't listen on headphones for an extended period even if you paid me, too claustophobic, unnatural; I like the sense of also connecting to the rest of the world while listening to music too much to go that route.

I might just throw in the fact that the friend I've mentioned often reckons I've got a mighty sharp set of ears ...

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

There may be something in what you say, Davey. I have tried very good quality headphones, by Sennheiser, and it doesn't do it for me: I get more sound, more recreation of the recording's acoustic from the speakers. I wouldn't listen on headphones for an extended period even if you paid me, too claustophobic, unnatural; I like the sense of also connecting to the rest of the world while listening to music too much to go that route.

Frank

Wow Frank, This is getting a little strange, I agree with your above statement......I'm not really into headphone listening either.( for basically the same reasons as you state).

My Senns sit at the side of my listening chair far more than on my head.

BUT---- Do you agree that headphones take the MAJOR contributor of your sound ( Your room) out of the equation?

 

[NorthStar]

Frank

your ears belong in the Smithsonian

Not only his ears Steve, but his ful aura as well. :b

______________________________________

* It is people like Frank who make us stronger and better in our audio retransformations ...
{It's like retransforming your room for better sound.} :b

And if it's good for me, you, them; then neither can't it be that bad for Frank.

 

[garylkoh]

Just an aside: the room and the speakers IMO must be considered as one. In so doing I would added about 15% to the range previously posted by Bruce.

I would respectfully disagree. You have to consider the room first, and then select the speakers to go in that room. If you pick the speakers first, you'll have to design the room around the speakers. I suspect that it will be easier to consider the room first.

 

[NorthStar]

If you put it into that perspective Gary, then I fully agree with you.

Large room* = large loudspeakers.

Small room = smaller speaker monitors.

* With subwoofers too. :b