How important is the room?

[DonH50]

No, of course not, but my room is sealed. The calculators only approximate my room anyway since it is not a pure rectangle, but the fundamental LF modes are essentially the same as what I have measured. I find them most useful for LF anyway, when the wavelengths are very low multiples of room dimensions. At higher frequencies the interactions become much more complex but generally much easier to treat due to the smaller wavelengths.

The are more complex programs that do take much more into account, but they cost much more, natch.

 

[NorthStar]

Thanks Don.

 

[JackD201]

I remember having an interesting discussion with Sean and others here about loudspeaker voicing in different countries/areas. Something outside of our control are our respective building codes. Here in the Pacific Rim of Fire, we are required to build with lots of concrete and CHB. As one would expect, the chances of finding a serendipitous "good room" like Davey experienced is slim to none compared with locales where space frame walls with insulation are the norm.

In the last 15 years, I've had three listening rooms. In every instance I've had to build false walls on the concrete and CHB walls. Being in a tropical country one also rarely finds heavy drapery and carpets because of moisture and the mold problems that can arise. One area I see ignored very often is the ceiling. While there's not much we can do about floors, unless you are using a linesource or a concentric array, one will be very surprised what working on ceiling reflections can do to enhance the listening experience. It's also a great place to mount bass traps especially if floor area is at a premium. I would strongly recommend ceiling work for anybody with a ceiling height below 12ft or so.

 

[MilkMan]

Without the bottle there is simply no wine. :b

No no! Of course there's wine. Without the bottle, it's in a box or in a carafe or decanter.

 

[microstrip]

Hi microstrip,

That calculator did not run for me on this old notebook; not sure why not (have to troubleshoot later, probably a Java issue).

(...)

The program needs a recent java plug-in the browser. One of the best things of the program is that for each frequency it shows the 3D diagram of the room pressures. This way you can figure how to move your speakers after taking a frequency response measurement.

 

[DonH50]

Thanks microstrip,

I'll have to update my poor old notebook.

It appears to find the same modes as my program (actual room dimensions 1`3'3" x 8'5" x 17'7", but there are some angles, big window wells, and a duct run that adds to the fun). Note the 30 Hz fundamental, and the many closely-spaced values. Some of those reinforce each other, leading to much deeper peaks and nulls than if they were far apart. This is because the room's dimensions are close to integer multiples, usually a Bad Thing. My original plans had everything nice and prime, but we added a bedroom to our plans and that came out of the media room, plus required another hallway. Bummer for the media room, but my younger son loves his new bedroom, and it is better for resale anyway.

I like the picture, need to figure out how to do that with my program!

Thanks,
Don

 

[microstrip]

I find particularly interesting to analyze the nulls and maximum pressure zone 2D intensity plots when you have two or more frequencies that are very close - if you do not have any guidance moving the speakers to correct these cases can be very difficult and time consuming.

I have found that unhappily for me things become more complex when using dipole speakers - you have to add the bass cancellation effect due to reflection of the back wave in the back wall.

 

[NorthStar]

One of the best and most important subject in our Audio hobby: the Room.

...The Acoustics of our physical surrounding space:
the Width, the Height, and the Length (in that order).
{Our 3-dimensional bubble.}

Also, at what Altitude are you living? Ocean level, or way up in the mountains (5,000 feet+ or so)?
...Or between of course.

And one thing people don't talk much 'bout: the Chair.
Yes, the chair you're sitting on when seriously listening to Music.
For me it is as important as any other component in our systems.
No high back, no stuffy arm rests, no swinging chair; very solid, well anchered, simple, comfortable,
free from sound obstruction, or reflections ...

________________

* I'll have much more to say about the Chair in the Room where that chair is sitting, and with the music listener sitting on that chair, and the overall integration with the Loudspeakers in the total Acoustical Dimension (genuine space) of that Room.

Right now, I'll let you, you other WBF members, elaborate furthermore on this if you wish so ...

I'll be back with some first hand personal audio listening experiences with the Chair, in various Rooms (dimensional sizes). ...And different listening chairs too with various sound influences ...

Stay true; sit tight on your chair but not uptight, stay tuned into that room, and attuned. :b

 

[DonH50]

I find particularly interesting to analyze the nulls and maximum pressure zone 2D intensity plots when you have two or more frequencies that are very close - if you do not have any guidance moving the speakers to correct these cases can be very difficult and time consuming.

I have found that unhappily for me things become more complex when using dipole speakers - you have to add the bass cancellation effect due to reflection of the back wave in the back wall.

MUCH more complex... However, I have killed the back wave in my room. Makes for fantastic imaging but you lose some of that immersiveness. I tried without and it ws simply a mess, as has always been my experience with dipoles and small rooms. I have always found a large room is required for dipoles to sound their best, to allow time for the reflections to run without (or with less) interference to the main waves. You still get that dreaded comb filtering, of course, but because of the time delay it is less noticeable.

@Northstar: My primary listening chair for ages was just a simple director's chair. I like having arms, but they are small, and no high back. Unfortuantely, due to various other factors I am now saddled with a big honkin' high-backed sofa. Thanks be to correction systems...

 

[NorthStar]

Don,

Treat your listening room (acoustics) & primary chair first;
then fine-tune the necessary corrections with equalizers from a top gun RC&EQS.
[Room Calibration & EQ System]

:b

P.S. I don't like high-back chairs, or sofas, or loveseats; those are for living rooms and Home Theater rooms.

For a true dedicated music listening room, with top-notch audio peformance, the 'primary listening chair', is the 'director', the 'conductor', of the full immersive listening experience. I truly believe, and from real experience.

Take for example a great Classical Concert hall; the chairs are specifically designed for great acoustics. And even the people sitting next to you; in front, in rear, and sideways.

 

[DonH50]

EQ doesn't really fix comb filter effects... And my room is already extensively treated. My measurement system is an expensive earthworks measurement mic (about $600), a cheap m-audio preamp ($150 because I wanted two channels in case I actually use it for recording), my old notebook, and RPlusD software (about $300).

I am done with treatments for now, but in the future plan to replace (or cover) a number of the absorbers with diffusers (which are much more expensive but do not kill the sound as much).

I am reasonably comfortable with acoustic analysis, having worked in the field for a while in my youth. Which does not imply competence today, so many years later, alas.

 

[KeithR]

Room was far more than I wanted to wish was important. I think people who over-generalize about it's importance haven't tried it---and therefore are chasing very minimal performance gains with super duper equipment.

I personally did a Rives L1 since my room is near square (24-24.5ish---but huge and not sealed). I would consider an L2 if I had a better room. If I had to do it again, I would probably do some things different. Simplify by just doing corner bass traps, 3 smaller ceiling clouds, first reflections, and bookshelves in the back. more diffusion, less absorption.

fyi- with my 9' ceiling, ceiling tiles made a monumental difference.

 

[DonH50]

Many people overlook the ceiling when considering treatments... It reflects the same as any other surface, and is often the longest unbroken reflecting surface in the room.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The best room i have heard was at mijn hifi in nijmegen, they unfortunately no longer exist anymore although its still a audioshop.
The room had evenly long parallel walls of about 7 meters long
The back wall was aproximately 3,5 meters wide and the front wall about 5 meters wide , it had a acoustically silent thick glass door .
The best sound was when the speakers were placed along the back side about a meter and a half of the backwall .
acoustic treatments were a thick carpet and curtains and maybe some basstraps in the corner i cant remember .
I never heard a room sound better , if i ever would build a music room i would copy those dimensions

 

[Bruce B]

Well if anyone is ever in the Seattle area, if you ever have a chance to listen to Winston Ma's room, it's a real treat. It's head and shoulders above any room I've heard.

 

[NorthStar]

No no! Of course there's wine. Without the bottle, it's in a box or in a carafe or decanter.

Do we know each other from another site?

 

[JackD201]

Well if anyone is ever in the Seattle area, if you ever have a chance to listen to Winston Ma's room, it's a real treat. It's head and shoulders above any room I've heard.

John Tucker told me the exact same thing.

 

[NorthStar]

Many people overlook the ceiling when considering treatments... It reflects the same as any other surface, and is often the longest unbroken reflecting surface in the room.

Right there! You just said it Don. :b
... Very very important, and if not the most important part (wall) of them all!

 

[NorthStar]

Well if anyone is ever in the Seattle area, if you ever have a chance to listen to Winston Ma's room, it's a real treat. It's head and shoulders above any room I've heard.

Any details on room's dimensions, or any pictures Bruce?

 

[JackD201]

I say floor. I'd rather be rained on than fall into an abyss.

They're all important. That's why we go by ratios.