How much does it bother you to see people arguing on the forum. Analogists and digitalists and subcategories.

[bonzo75]

from your narrow musical viewpoint maybe. we each are where we are on the musical discovery path.

I respect your musical journey and wish you the best to find what you want from it. but dismissing other's path's is unfortunate. leave it at that.

Sorry, if someone is upgrading to above X price, I stand by what I said… he is a gear head trapped in upgrades, not a music explorer. The YT will sound much better and have better content, but that will escape him

 

[andromedaaudio]

The Wadax atlantis DAC has digital inputs which allow for a LT / YT.
It can then go to stereo speaker system of choice ( incl soundbar )

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry, if someone is upgrading to above X price, I stand by what I said… he is a gear head trapped in upgrades, not a music explorer. The YT will sound much better and have better content, but that will escape him

I sense we have tipped over into the twilight zone here. time to watch the UEFA Champions League soccer game.

 

[Robh3606]

I assume decisions of a rational audiophile are based on sonics and the cost value. So I can understand someone paying up if he thinks he is getting better sonics. I do not understand someone paying up if he is fully aware he is getting lesser sonics.

Which is the same point of view a person preferring digital has.

Rob

 

[wil]

Sorry, completely disagree. I haven’t seen serious music explorers here. On the other hand, I keep comparing performances all day long, there are absolute exotic rare performances on YT you wouldn’t have heard about. I also prefer listening to it more than most hifi systems I have heard, except serious vinyl sets horns and a couple of digital

I think you’re probably overestimating your music exploration , lol! But why would I care? What’s the purpose of trying put others down to prop yourself up? Speaking just for myself, you don’t have a clue as to my music exploration experience…

 

[bonzo75]

I think you’re probably overestimating your music exploration , lol! But why would I care? What’s the purpose of trying put others down to prop yourself up? Speaking just for myself, you don’t have a clue as to my music exploration experience…

I didn’t, Mike said “serious music explorers” for those with high end digital - I just gave back my opinion of those with “serious digital gear “. I do have a clue to yours, it comes from your forum participation

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I imagine a peacefull world with only one amplifier brand for everybody

Comrade!

 

[Tangram]

A skilled debater doesn’t resort to personal insults to make his point. There’s too much of that here, and it’s the main reason I don’t post much.

 

[caesar]

Personally, in the last few days I have encountered a continuous squabble in some posts within the forum. I have no problem reading opinions that differ from mine, nor do I feel threatened by those who express thoughts diametrically opposed to my own. On the contrary, I try to read and understand the reasons for the opinions expressed by others and I always try to take them into account. Something can always come up that in my journey as an audiophile I had underestimated or had never taken into consideration. Someone very wise said that true knowledge is knowing that you don't know. If the opinions expressed by others do not convince me or I do not find confirmation of them, even simply based on my personal taste, nothing happens. I am truly tired of those who address others on the assumption that they possess the revealed truth. and who, hiding behind their superior idea, attack those who do not submit to their reasoning. Live and let live

High end audio is a subjective experience. And a number of scientifically proven psychological fallacies come to mind that explain this behavior

Naive Realism

This is one of the greatest curses on our hobby. Most people think they see the world as it actually is rather than from their own perspective. But it’s just their subjective opinion of the stereo illusion. Or their personal approach to a subjective experience. When they meet someone who sees the world differently, it’s trouble! We see this here all the time: some silly goose spends as much as a house on his dac - but he only streams and expects every one to A. like his dac and B. like the streaming experience as much as him. When you share that you prefer a different experience to finding the "state of flow" he implies your experience is invalid because he knows better.

Or some sophisticated sounding Wilson- DCS fan thinks everyone should like the same thing as them, despite real world evidence of millions of millionaires , who love music, choosing to pass on his preferences and conclusions of their imaginations.


Motivated reasoning

This is a mode of decision making in which people evaluate new information based on how it aligns with their existing beliefs and tribal values: When we are bombarded with Data and details, people typically resort to cognitive inertia. Human brains find ways to accept even flimsy evidence that supports our worldview and discount whatever might challenge our assumptions... They are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

Liking

Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “faction,” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate for their common good.”…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quoting James Madison federalist number 10.)


And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands and experiences they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand , share the same approach to audio, or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, verbose platonic imaginationists, guys making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , guys participating in the the Orgiasttic taiko herd thread , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.

The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts. Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. They cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …

Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this.

And then, finally, also we have so many mentally weak and irrational clowns, who call other people names, because the stars in the cosmos didn’t align and people don’t share their tastes and preferences

This will never end until people adopt a more rational approach to audio as an illusion and to examining the psychological biases I mentioned above.

And adopt the “live and let live” attitude you espouse!

Until then - which is likely forever - Fireworks!

 

[caesar]

Many of the debates and much of the talking past each other arises from not understanding that there are different objectives of high-end audio. Naturally the path to different objectives is lined with lesser-included divergent views and different predicate decisions.

Are these goals based on reality? Or on their subjective illusions?

 

[Al M.]

High end audio is a subjective experience. And a number of scientifically proven psychological fallacies come to mind that explain this behavior

Naive Realism

This is one of the greatest curses on our hobby. Most people think they see the world as it actually is rather than from their own perspective. But it’s just their subjective opinion of the stereo illusion. Or their personal approach to a subjective experience. When they meet someone who sees the world differently, it’s trouble! We see this here all the time: some silly goose spends as much as a house on his dac - but he only streams and expects every one to A. like his dac and B. like the streaming experience as much as him. When you share that you prefer a different experience to finding the "state of flow" he implies your experience is invalid because he knows better.

Or some sophisticated sounding Wilson- DCS fan thinks everyone should like the same thing as them, despite real world evidence of millions of millionaires , who love music, choosing to pass on his preferences and conclusions of their imaginations.


Motivated reasoning

This is a mode of decision making in which people evaluate new information based on how it aligns with their existing beliefs and tribal values: When we are bombarded with Data and details, people typically resort to cognitive inertia. Human brains find ways to accept even flimsy evidence that supports our worldview and discount whatever might challenge our assumptions... They are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

Liking

Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “faction,” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate for their common good.”…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quoting James Madison federalist number 10.)


And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands and experiences they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand , share the same approach to audio, or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, verbose platonic imaginationists, guys making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , guys participating in the the Orgiasttic taiko herd thread , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.

The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts. Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. They cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …

Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this.

And then, finally, also we have so many mentally weak and irrational clowns, who call other people names, because the stars in the cosmos didn’t align and people don’t share their tastes and preferences

This will never end until people adopt a more rational approach to audio as an illusion and to examining the psychological biases I mentioned above.

And adopt the “live and let live” attitude you espouse!

Until then - which is likely forever - Fireworks!

Excellent post, Caesar. It would have been even better if you would have left out certain contentious examples. Unfortunately, a number of people will probably concentrate on those, which will distract them from your solid overall analysis and message.

 

[wil]

High end audio is a subjective experience. And a number of scientifically proven psychological fallacies come to mind that explain this behavior

Naive Realism

This is one of the greatest curses on our hobby. Most people think they see the world as it actually is rather than from their own perspective. But it’s just their subjective opinion of the stereo illusion. Or their personal approach to a subjective experience. When they meet someone who sees the world differently, it’s trouble! We see this here all the time: some silly goose spends as much as a house on his dac - but he only streams and expects every one to A. like his dac and B. like the streaming experience as much as him. When you share that you prefer a different experience to finding the "state of flow" he implies your experience is invalid because he knows better.

Or some sophisticated sounding Wilson- DCS fan thinks everyone should like the same thing as them, despite real world evidence of millions of millionaires , who love music, choosing to pass on his preferences and conclusions of their imaginations.


Motivated reasoning

This is a mode of decision making in which people evaluate new information based on how it aligns with their existing beliefs and tribal values: When we are bombarded with Data and details, people typically resort to cognitive inertia. Human brains find ways to accept even flimsy evidence that supports our worldview and discount whatever might challenge our assumptions... They are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

Liking

Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “faction,” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate for their common good.”…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quoting James Madison federalist number 10.)


And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands and experiences they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….

We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand , share the same approach to audio, or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, verbose platonic imaginationists, guys making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , guys participating in the the Orgiasttic taiko herd thread , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.

The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts. Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. They cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …

Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this.

And then, finally, also we have so many mentally weak and irrational clowns, who call other people names, because the stars in the cosmos didn’t align and people don’t share their tastes and preferences

This will never end until people adopt a more rational approach to audio as an illusion and to examining the psychological biases I mentioned above.

And adopt the “live and let live” attitude you espouse!

Until then - which is likely forever - Fireworks!

Of course all the psycho/social dynamics mentioned are at play. I think that's pretty obvious.

But I don't see how going out your way to throw rocks at a few different sub-groups (your favorite targets) contributes anything other than further poisoning the well.

 

[treitz3]

<snip> Streaming rips to low fi lets me explore the music and play all day long without fatigue. <snip>

If a system is so bad that one has to refer to lesser mediums in order to listen without fatigue, then one does not have a refined system or music to listen too to begin with.

Personally, I can listen to my rig for 16 hours straight and not one ounce or hint of fatigue. Only the yearning for more music and shame/disappointment when it comes time to turn it down or off.

This is a vast contradiction to the "almighty" system(s) you tout from day to day.....

A severe loss of points on the audiophile credibility card have been deducted from your account. Thank you for playing.

Tom

 

[Rexp]

If a system is so bad that one has to refer to lesser mediums in order to listen without fatigue, then one does not have a refined system or music to listen too to begin with.

Personally, I can listen to my rig for 16 hours straight and not one ounce or hint of fatigue. Only the yearning for more music and shame/disappointment when it comes time to turn it down or off.

This is a vast contradiction to the "almighty" system(s) you tout from day to day.....

A severe loss of points on the audiophile credibility card have been deducted from your account. Thank you for playing.

Tom

It's more likely that you are less sensitive to the distortion embedded into most digital recordings, afterall some folks have loved CD from the beginning. Playing poorly recorded digital material on lo fi systems makes them more listenable to some.

 

[treitz3]

It's more likely that you are less sensitive to the distortion embedded into most digital recordings, afterall some folks have loved CD from the beginning. Playing poorly recorded digital material on lo fi systems makes them more listenable to some.

Actually, I am VERY sensitive to the deficiencies in digital recordings and the medium in general. That said, I was actually referring to digital when I wrote my post.

I absolutely hated digital when it first came out. Loved the cleanliness and dynamic extentions but that was about it back then. Damn, did it sound like crap to these ears.

Lo-fi (to me) is not an option when listening. It's either High Fidelity music or the phone, radio or Bluetooth listening as background music.

Those choices are actually more sound fatiguing to these ears than a High Fidelity system and a great or maybe even not so great recording (without too much compression or loudness) at loud to very loud levels.

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . YT . . . I also prefer listening to it more than most hifi systems I have heard, except serious vinyl sets horns and a couple of digital

I find this very difficult to believe.

I would much prefer listening to music in a dedicated way on my personal idea of high-end audio system Hell (dCS on Boulder on YG) over listening via YouTube on a computer soundbar.

If you're just talking about casual background listening while cooking or doing exercise, then of course I understand.

But if you are saying unless you can listen to music in a dedicated way on a mere three or four favorite systems of SETs on horns, or Sigma MAAT, that you would rather listen to YouTube via computer soundbar over any other of the contemporary systems of the types often talked about on WBF, I think that is just stubborn.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

guys participating in the the Orgiasttic taiko herd thread

...I propose we get togas and wear them to the audio shows. Can't get a good orgy off the ground without togas.

 

[thedudeabides]

Too ironic. Some people cannot play "nice" even though the OP's thread is about trying to play nice. What a paradox.

I have recently become much more reticent about participating and posting due to the pervasive, dysfunctional, self serving tone and behavior that seems, too often in my view, so prevalent on WBF. And I admit that I have not been the most diplomatic person at times and when I behaved in such a manner, I have tried to recognize / rectify my shortcomings and apologize for my conduct. I have tried to avoid conflict and making disrespectful comments towards anyone unless I was the "target︎ed" individual.

But I must admit, I totally concur with all the comments regarding bonzo's provocative, confrontational, ego driven behavior. It took awhile but it's about time.

I wish everyone the best. TDA

 

[Rexp]

I find this unbelievable, if not ludicrous.

I would much prefer listening to music in a dedicated way on my personal idea of high-end audio system Hell (dCS on Boulder on YG) over listening via YouTube on a computer soundbar.

If you're just talking about casual background listening while cooking or doing exercise, then of course I understand.

Well if you think that is ludicrous, what did you think when a fellow vinyl fan started a thread on preferring his TV to his turntable here?
Thread 'Why does my TV sound more real?' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/why-does-my-tv-sound-more-real.38452/

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well if you think that is ludicrous, what did you think when a fellow vinyl fan started a thread on preferring his TV to his turntable here?
Thread 'Why does my TV sound more real?' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/why-does-my-tv-sound-more-real.38452/

Hi Rexp,

I know nothing about the situation of that poster.

But if that is his true preference, then I suggest he start back at square one and figure out what kind of sound he finds most emotionally-engaging, and then audition components and put together a system that satisfies his thoughtfully selected high audio objective.

And if he doesn't want to do that he can just take the following system suggestions:

-- a Songer Audio speaker or Devore O96 or a Wolf Von Langa speaker

-- EAR or Trafomatic (or similar) integrated amplifier

-- LampizatOr Baltic 4 (he likes TV sound so obviously he does not mind digital audio)