How much is too much?

[DaveyF]

I read about the new Constellation amps in the current Abbo Sound which are priced at $140K per pair.
Interestingly, at the end of the mag, is a review with Harry Weisfeld of VPI fame...in this review done by Neil Gader, Harry states..." High prices driven by inflation, currency problems, and greed are driving away customers. The fastest way to lose an industry is to make it so expensive that only the rich can afford to indulge in it."

Which brings me to my question.... How pricey is too pricey? At what price point does the amp manufacturer or speaker manufacturer or cable manufacturer( or you name it manufacturer) fear that the above will occur? Or, perhaps they don't believe in Harry's statement, and therefore, the sky is the limit..

I also ask this question of the many reviewers that frequent this site ....what price for gear is too much in your opinion, or is there no price that would seem to be too high to you

Is Harry's statement correct in your opinion or is he just saying....." The sky's falling, The sky's falling"

 

[JackD201]

When nobody buys it at that price, it's too much.

I disagree with HW. I don't think high prices drive away customers. I see way to many customers come in to a hi-fi salon to oggle the exotic goodies only to walk out with what they can afford. I don't see scowls or frowns on their faces, only smiles. The exotics serve a purpose as crowd drawers more than they shoe off people. What does drive people away are sales staff that fail to make customers feel comfortable. Combine that with high priced gear and the inevitable reactions are either intimidation or anger.

Besides, no giants, no giant killers. It's all good in my book.

 

[LL21]

Agree. There is enormous wealth accumulation going on globally. (not, i did not say wealth growth...it is just reallocation of existing assets to wealthy, as global growth rates are poor at the moment.) This wealth is (virtually) impervious to downturns...certainly to the point where buying a $100K anything is less than a couple weeks interest in the bank. Think about it that way, and you realize that if a boutique manufacturer can capture a handful of those sales a year (let alone any more in a better economy), and they can stay in business a good long while.

 

[Orb]

Harry would be right if there were no great "entry level" or budget audio products, but the reality is that we are seeing some great products at the cheaper end of the scale, so this encourages those who are not interested in the audio industry as a hobby or striving for the best (could be performance or preference,etc) audio reproduction.
I read in one of the magazines this month an article on Rega, part of the article mentions their latest cheaper end turntable and they are selling if I remember 2000 a month of these, this figure ignores all other products and turntables they sale.
Seems pretty reasonable sales figures to me, considering this is just one product in their line, and possibly shows an interest from various consumers to dip into LPs again.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the marketplace votes with it's pocketbook!!

how i read your idea here is........ 'could too high priced gear have a negative affect on the hobby and business model of high end audio?'

the truely inovative products i've seen are not the mega-buck one's for the most part. and even mostly the best products are not the crazy expensive ones. so 'bling, bling' 5 zero gear does not dominate the sweet spot of top performance. not to say that there is not great sounding really expensive products.

you can assemble a very very top level system from gear that Jonathan Valin has never reviewed.

i applaud no-holds-bared products and feel they reinforce the value of the hobby, not threaten it with eliteism. the glow from them improves the health and attracks attention. move-up buyers create energy.

i'm in the car business. a healthy luxury car market creates opportunity up and down the marketplace.

 

[jazdoc]

IMO, Orb and Mike have nailed it.

 

[audioguy]

The beauty of a $200,000 amp/preamp no-holds barred development, is that ultimately, some of that technology has the chance to trickle down to other, lower cost products that some of us can actually afford.

While it may not have been intended to be such, I read this as an R&D effort to see what was possible, cost no object. (But I'm sure they will sell some to those who want what is the very best).

270 pounds for an amp?? That's what one of my speakers and subs weigh!!

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

It would have been true if these gears do bring progress to the reproduction of music in one's home. The sad answer is: Not necessarily. DO we really think that progress have been made in electronics to justify these prices? if yes (likely IMO) what are these progresses in electronic circuitry? What have we learned recently that we didn't know? Aside from the fact that people will be willing to spend these vast amounts Could one tell me what the Constellation have that separate them from other great amps? Really ... Really Do they sound vastly superior or are we trying to impose Wine tasting-type of scale to Audio? i-e what a few people anointed as gurus decide or is it truly a superlative amplifier clearly and defintively superior to the others?
That some people are able to afford an expensive item is nothing new. The unfortunate thing is that there is a sad disconnect between price and real , verifiable performance. It is not about to end judging by the e-shrug displayed in many replied here .. I would say that it will continue and I fear that High End Audio will become even more marginal and not survive... Time will tell. Some of us may think the High ENd Industry is doing very well. The numbers are not so great.., especially those about growth... No growth usually means impending doom ...

 

[microstrip]

IMHO high price gear pushes the development of the high-end just because, unhappily for consumers, higher priced equipment is generally better than cheaper equipment. There is nothing elitist is this rule, it is a general engineering rule. There will be exceptions - not all products are successes - and the law of diminishing returns applies, but the existence of the ultra top models pushes the exigences of performance for the whole industry.

Surely we have two types of high priced high-end - the luxury type with high performance and the exotic opulent that although usually sounds good, does not represent a real improvement in sound reproduction. Hi-end gear of this last type is often used to slash or depreciate the whole high-end industry - an easy task with warranty of success with a less knowledgeable audience.

BTW, I am taking the concept of luxury and opulence from a David Wilson interview I read some time ago and can not find anymore - he explained it better than me!

 

[Whatmore]

After R&D and materials cost, does anyone know what the profit margin is on a $140k amp?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It will come as no surprise that I disagree. What you guys are talking about is the effect that aspirational products have on people who are already in the hobby. But I think the excessive products (and that's where I'd put a $150k preamp; really, what can the last $149k add?) of the high end discourage entry into the hobby. Most civilians don't want to be like us, guys. . They look at even modest audiophile hobbyists as "eccentrics." $150k preamps, if they even know about such things, push that view straight into "insane." I'm not sure I understand why this view is so prevalent - we don't seem to paint car lovers with a broad, negative brush simply because the Bugatti Veyron exists. But it's out there, and has been for a long time. If the hobby and its press put a lot more emphasis on great sound that is affordable and practical for normal people in normal homes, I think there would be a lot more people making the transition from their iPods to good systems instead of just docking them in some small table top thing from Bose.

We might not care, but I think that should be the industry's objective, rather than having a market that gets a bit smaller every time one of us passes away.

Tim

 

[Orb]

Although Tim if put in perspective, what do most civilians see or are aware of; the 150k amp or Bose/add any name that high street store pushes/etc ?
I very much doubt the average person who is not into this hobby is put off by products costing tens to hundred of thousands because these are not mainstream products nor are they are they noticable.
Most of the excessively expensive gear only appear at audio shows, or specific to audio hifi publications (mostly referenced when at shows).
However, the numbers attending hifi audio shows and reading audio magazines could be classified as niche market.

So I am not sure how the general public can be put off by the most expensive gear when it is marginal compared to mass mainstream products and the way they are marketed.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Gregadd]

"Too much of a good thing can be wonderful."

 

[LL21]

Well said!

 

[es347]

I've got about $50K in my system, modest by many who frequent WBF. I never tell my non-audiophile visiting listeners what's invested--they'd think I have a mental disorder. A neighbor helped me move my $28K speakers downstairs into my basement listening room. He asked me how much they cost...my reply "a lot". He asked "what...$1000?" The look on my face forced another try...."OVER one thousand??" The general public cannot relate to this hobby guys....at all.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I've got about $50K in my system, modest by many who frequent WBF. I never tell my non-audiophile visiting listeners what's invested--they'd think I have a mental disorder.

My point exactly. Civilians, even serious music-loving civilians, don't have to go to shows and be aware of $150K preamps to conclude that the hobby is full of nuts, we're all delusional, and the whole thing is not to be taken seriously. A $10K system is enough for most. If you put most serious music lovers in front of a well-chosen $10K system, they'd get it, but most would think that was more than enough and they'd still look at you like you have a third eye if you suggested a step up to a $50K system. A $150k preamp? Fuggetaboutit. And they have a pretty good point. I can name a couple of already pretty high-end DACs with integrated preamps that measure nearly perfectly and sound virtually transparent. And these integrated DAC/Pres sell for <$2K. Let's assume the pre is half of that. Where is the $149K?

Tim

 

[Orb]

Tim, that does not mean it puts them off because ES347 experience shows they were not even aware products could cost more than even a fraction of 150k
Once told, I doubt it would stop them purchasing speakers,etc if they like listening to music at home, and this is different to those outside of the hobby viewing audiophiles as eccentric for their spending behaviour, which can be applicable to many hobbies and even say car fans who live in cities or never use their cars on track circuits.

Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

When a debate only nominates a "general 150k preamplifier" as an example it is also probably doing a poor service to the high-end cause, as it is presenting an extreme ambiguous case, statistically non representative with minimal impact in the market. If we look at current top preamplifiers from the most considered high-end manufacturers with evidence of significant known sales most of them typically list between 15 and 40K, with a few cases going over 50% of this maximum. (Please do not feel angry if I am excluding your favorite preamplifier ).

Surely, if someone feels that he can get better sound reproduction without preamplifier the chosen example is really a very poor one ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

When a debate only nominates a "general 150k preamplifier" as an example it is also probably doing a poor service to the high-end cause, as it is presenting an extreme ambiguous case, statistically non representative with minimal impact in the market. If we look at current top preamplifiers from the most considered high-end manufacturers with evidence of significant known sales most of them typically list between 15 and 40K, with a few cases going over 50% of this maximum. (Please do not feel angry if I am excluding your favorite preamplifier ).

Surely, if someone feels that he can get better sound reproduction without preamplifier the chosen example is really a very poor one ...

agree completely. this example is like the $600k turntable someone posted about a few months back. it made a nice headline, but when the actual facts were uncovered it was a DIY project and the value was based on time invested, not market value or even performance. there was only one of them and there were no plans even to sell it. but since it made a nice headline it attracted attention.

naysayers love to find the 'red herring' and hold it up as if it's evidence of something. it's not.

if 30 guys buy $150k preamps then there is a trend.

 

[terryj]

The look on my face forced another try...

And the pic to the left was a snapshot of said look?