How to Revive High-End Audio

[ack]

Regarding cost being a big factor (with which I agree), let's ask the following questions, based on what we know today regarding brands and performance, and let's leave taxes, dedicated rooms and room treatments, and R2R out:

1) How much would you say your current system should cost
2) How much would you say your own ultimate reference system (that would fit in your current room) should cost, if you were in the market to buy it today

Be realistic and consider: a) operating costs, R&D costs, cost of parts, shipping product to dealers, attending shows, offering appropriate service when needed, and budget for product line expansion and growth; b) appropriate dealer mark-up to have a store front, keep them in business, make a decent living, cover rent and salaries, and offer good rooms for auditions; and c) appropriate importer/distributor mark-up where appropriate.

Then, ask the following question: how many would pay the asking price.

My answer to #1 would be $75K (but I have three eligible sources) and I have to think about #2. But based just on that figure alone - which is roughly the cost of a nice BMW 7-series somewhat loaded, in a country where luxury cars are just about the cheapest - I'd say not too many are willing to pay that kinda money. I can bring the cost down to $50K w/o analog, but that's an unoptioned, basic BMW 5-series in the US.

It feels like this is a hobby that involves high bring-to-market costs.

 

[BlueFox]

How much time do middle aged guys spend surfing porn when they might have been listening to a record player thirty years ago?

With the iPad one can surf porn, and listen to music. Multi-tasking.

 

[Al M.]

The disturbing thing is that the "loudness wars" are affecting classical music at all, especially on a hires high profile new release at a time when other genres are clearly scaling back. That distresses me a great deal.

I wouldn't fret about it. A few exceptions don't make a rule. I'd start worrying if I'd see a trend on the horizon -- at this point, I don't.

 

[jazdoc]

With the iPad one can surf porn, and listen to music. Multi-tasking.

Steve Jobs is smiling someplace!

 

[rbbert]

Umm, MSRP on the BMW 7 series varies from $73k - $140k, and for the 5 series (not M5, obviously) $49k - $66k.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO, music servers are helping to kill the High-end. Every demonstration I had using music servers in shops or shows was lifeless and annoying. Unfortunately most dealers using music servers do not try to optimize systems for them - they rely mainly on the clinical perfection of the music server!

And perhaps the high-end manufacturers that are playing great music using reel-to-reel tape machines in shows are shooting in their feet - they create the notion than great sound is something of the past.

 

[still-one]

IMHO, music servers are helping to kill the High-end. Every demonstration I had using music servers in shops or shows was lifeless and annoying. Unfortunately most dealers using music servers do not try to optimize systems for them - they rely mainly on the clinical perfection of the music server!

And perhaps the high-end manufacturers that are playing great music using reel-to-reel tape machines in shows are shooting in their feet - they create the notion than great sound is something of the past.

If it wasn't for music servers I would probably give up this hobby. I spend way too much time listening to music to keep searching for discs the having to swap them in and out of my disc players.I do agree with you that most dealers do a poor job of properly setting up and using severs in their stores. They can't find the music in their set-ups. They have trouble with playlists especially if one track is at 24/192 an the next at 16/44 them back to 24/96.

 

[microstrip]

If it wasn't for music servers I would probably give up this hobby. I spend way too much time listening to music to keep searching for discs the having to swap them in and out of my disc players.I do agree with you that most dealers do a poor job of properly setting up and using severs in their stores. They can't find the music in their set-ups. They have trouble with playlists especially if one track is at 24/192 an the next at 16/44 them back to 24/96.

Can I ask you what type of music server do you own? I know that soon or later I will probably move in this direction, but I always feel it as a compromise on ultimate quality.

 

[still-one]

Can I ask you what type of music server do you own? I know that soon or later I will probably move in this direction, but I always feel it as a compromise on ultimate quality.

I use a Meridian/Sooloos MC-200 with 808v3 as the DAC/endpoint.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If it wasn't for music servers I would probably give up this hobby. I spend way too much time listening to music to keep searching for discs the having to swap them in and out of my disc players.I do agree with you that most dealers do a poor job of properly setting up and using severs in their stores. They can't find the music in their set-ups. They have trouble with playlists especially if one track is at 24/192 an the next at 16/44 them back to 24/96.

I don't think those are the kinds of problems micro was referring to; I suspect he was saying dealers fail to integrate servers into systems properly resulting in poor synergy and poor sound.

Tim

 

[Robh3606]

I suspect he was saying dealers fail to integrate servers into systems properly resulting in poor synergy and poor sound.

Hello Tim

I would have to agree. I just went to audition the new Performa 3 line from Revel. I brought several CD's with me and after my last demo track the dealer hooked in his server. It sounded awful! Lots of noise and no body, no soundstage. He seemed quite happy with it???

Why should we care what happens to the Hi End?? I would still be in this hobby either way. As I see it the whole price of admission crap is quite off putting to many. You need to spend at last x dollars?? What a complete load of BS that is. The hobby is not about how much you spend or how great your gear is. It's about your love of music.

Rob

 

[Al M.]

Hello Tim

I would have to agree. I just went to audition the new Performa 3 line from Revel. I brought several CD's with me and after my last demo track the dealer hooked in his server. It sounded awful! Lots of noise and no body, no soundstage. He seemed quite happy with it???

Rob

I don't have a server. Seems to me I'll stay with my 'old-fashioned' CDs, especially since I don't see the point of hi-rez with its pathetically limited choices of music.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't have a server. Seems to me I'll stay with my 'old-fashioned' CDs, especially since I don't see the point of hi-rez with its pathetically limited choices of music.

There is no need to see the point in hi res to enjoy the benefits of a server. They'll serve up red book just fine.

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

WRONG, unfortunately. One needs to look no farther than the recent Brahms symphonies by Chailly, in either Redbook or HD 24/96. They sound very nice but are victims of quite marked compression and peak-limiting, totally unnecessary. There are many more examples although I agree that it is relatively rare compared to rock/pop. Jazz, OTOH, is every bit as bad as rock/pop on most new recordings.

And we can talk about the editing war where an orchestra can't play more than a couple of measures without stopping. Old days, orchestras could, would and were proud that they could play a whole movement through in one take. Took practice.

 

[MylesBAstor]

On the other extreme, on jazz recordings from the 50s and 60s it is often bothersome when the double bass has its solo. It cannot 'step forward' of course, but nonetheless the volume in the recording is often unnaturally cranked up for that instrument's solo. Even a legendary engineer like Rudy van Gelder could not resist the temptation -- and otherwise, he did a lot of stuff really well (for example, on the CD of his 24-bit remaster from 1998 of his '64 recording of Eric Dolphy's avantgarde jazz classic "Out to Lunch!" the clarity of all the instruments is superb; that includes Tony Williams' drum kit which sounds really stunning).

Perhaps that was the result of the remastering and not on the original tape?

 

[JackD201]

I've been thinking about the aging thing. I think not just audio but everything is getting pushed back to later years. Lifespans have gotten longer. People are electing to marry later, buy homes later. The latter has got to be a factor. Not having an address that one could consider more or less permanent I believe is a barrier to entry at least to full range audio, serious ht or any other hobby that requires a base and investments in home improvements to that base. Hobbies like woodworking and wine and art collecting also come to mind. Cars, watches, sports, gaming, collections of small items (coins, stamps, coffee makers) aren't affected anywhere near as much.

Looking at the profile of our clients, the vast majority of newcomers are people that have just settled down. Those that haven't, who also happen to be younger, buy integrateds and monitors. The even younger, renting studios on shorter term types, buy headphone accessories and small DACs. U-Haul factor? Perhaps. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "When I get my own place, I'll call you and lets talk about getting me a real system." I don't know exactly what that means since size isn't really a factor but I take it to mean that they mean full range speakers in a place that can take them. Many have called and have bought bigger systems but now usually in their mid thirties to forties.

Rarer is the older first timer in their late forties to early fifties. These people usually come in as couples and go for integrated audio and video systems. There's always that interesting dynamic between couples on the allocation of the budget. Males, audio. Females, video. Inevitably, the husband ends up losing sweet spot time and thus the mancave is born.

More and more common are newcomer or returning retirees. They look for simple (aesthetically and ergonomically) midsize systems with as little bells and whistles as possible but demand high price/performance ratios.

So, I don't think the hobby is so much dying as it is time shifted. No doubt prices have contributed to a larger shift when it comes to range topping items but there is a lot of excellent affordable gear out there that can be had now for the younger set. The question is, where do they put it and if they move, do they want to deal with the hassle.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I moved stereo systems from rental houses to apartments to rental to....for more than a decade before I bought my first house. Everybody I knew did the same.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

I've moved thrice. Not fun. Each move also ended up with me finding a system that suited the new place better. It would make one think about investing a lot when you aren't sure how long you'll be staying. I only ever really invested or went "all-in" when I had the size room I wanted. If for some reason I end up moving, I'm going to be in the same boat as Steve when he was moving away from Danville. What had to be done to get his system to fit in to Coto Azul was nothing short of monumental. That is not something I look forward to experiencing but will just have to deal with.

So Tim, out of curiosity, do you think all that moving might have somehow helped even in a small way push you in a direction towards smaller and simpler?

 

[Al M.]

Perhaps that was the result of the remastering and not on the original tape?

Possibly, yes. Yet since it is a recurring phenomenon on a number of recordings of that era, mastered and re-mastered by different engineers, I am inclined to think that it was a sound signature of that time rather than a later addition. But I don't have proof.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I've moved thrice. Not fun. Each move also ended up with me finding a system that suited the new place better. It would make one think about investing a lot when you aren't sure how long you'll be staying. I only ever really invested or went "all-in" when I had the size room I wanted. If for some reason I end up moving, I'm going to be in the same boat as Steve when he was moving away from Danville. What had to be done to get his system to fit in to Coto Azul was nothing short of monumental. That is not something I look forward to experiencing but will just have to deal with.

So Tim, out of curiosity, do you think all that moving might have somehow helped even in a small way push you in a direction towards smaller and simpler?

I think it was probably circumstantial. I spent a lot of time hauling PA around from room to room, assessing layout, seating, listening to the rooms, imagining what they'd sound like filled with people, then setting a system up in that room and playing into it. I did that week by week, day by day. Can't say I gave much thought to moving my stereo system to a new room every couple of years. Smaller and simpler? Nothing is terribly simple with turntables and tape decks involved, and my systems always included some recording ability. The biggest speakers I've ever used, other than PA, were Klipsch Lascalas. I'm not a bass freak; I've never needed to play my home system into a really big room. There has been little advantage in huge speakers for me.

Tim