I really miss the participation of.....

[puroagave]

Johnny Vinyl, you might go see the "shark" audio forum to find some of your friends.

I agree with Tim there is plenty of room on this forum to start posts on anything.

And without personal attacks or incorrect re-phrasing things might seem more tame, I call that good. Colorful debates can ensue when folks address the post and not the posters, or their hearing, or their system price point, etc. Its better around here, its a good atmosphere.

I don't open up 95% of the threads here, but my interests are served in the areas I do open up.

the 95% you don't care about is likely what interests me most and it was those members that are now absent that were major contributors to those threads. In all honesty I'd rather bore myself to death reading about how stillpoints, shunyata cables, etc will change my life--and i'll probably never buy into those products--than to engage in yet another objectivist vs subjectivist debate the kind that are driving people away...just saying.

 

[Mosin]

Do you really think people do not post because they are scared someone will put them down. I think it is just the way people are try to get as much info as you can and give nothing back. A few will post right or wrong or more likely just a point of view. Their is little chance any idea is 100% right, too many combinations so many ways to do anything. For the most part the form does what it should get ideas out in the open. What is best is hard call but the form does narrow it down and that is a good thing. IMO

No, I don't think that people are are scared someone will put them down at all. I do believe you are right with your other comments, however.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Having to "prove" stuff all the time is just plain tiring. It's like getting shadow managed. For every active poster, there is a big multiple of lurkers. I know a few of them. I've been told many times by the more casual hobbyists that the atmosphere here is intimidating for this very reason. They get the impression that if they post personal impressions here, they'll be put to the task of explaining the "hows" and not just the "whys". For the more seasoned and technologically inclined hobbyists I've been told that they think the, I quote, "nitpicking" is just annoying.

my concerns run along these lines.....however, not so much the actual objectivist and cynical comments in and of themselves.....as the fact the balance of the forum has changed because of it and it keeps 'listener validation leaning' lurkers at a distance. so it's not going to get more to my tastes, it's going the other way.

the admin is getting what it asked for trying to be everything to everyone. a noble idea.....for mediocrity.

800 posts essentially about the finer points of blind testing pretty much tips the scales for me......and they are not done yet. the ultimate listener buzz kill. but that is what WBF is right now more than it's not.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Objective vs subjective -- I wouldn't throw them all under this simple umbrella, but I know the threads you're talking about. They often start out as, for me, anyway, the most interesting threads on WBF. Amir's audible hi res thread, which still rages on without me, is a great example. I don't know how something so nuanced, yet so fundamental to the quality of listening cannot be more interesting than the introduction of another preamp, but different strokes... The problem is that such subjects draw very strong opinions, and when vigorous debate runs short of logic and out of evidence, it often gets personal. People stop talking about the subject of the thread and start attacking other's experience, equipment, taste, hearing, etc.

A couple of the folks who are missing were in every one of those threads and were the first to turn to personal attacks when their positions ran dry. I won't miss them. Their absence will be a good influence on my own behavior here, because I often found their attacks impossible to leave unanswered. Others who have left, or who lurk, intimidated? Maybe they'll be back. It's pretty easy to not open those threads if they're the problem. If the problem is that they want to get into those threads, frame unfounded opinions as facts and have that go unchallenged, they're in the wrong place. And they have plenty of options. There are boards out there where questioning the conventional wisdom is vigorously and briskly shouted down. There are even a few where questioning the conventional wisdom can get you banned while shouting down those who question will not even get you censured. As long as your opinion agrees with the crowd, you'll be quite safe.

Thankfully, WBF is not one of those places. I'll be happy to ban myself if that ever changes.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

my concerns run along these lines.....however, not so much the actual objectivist and cynical comments in and of themselves.....as the fact the balance of the forum has changed because of it and it keeps 'listener validation leaning' lurkers at a distance. so it's not going to get more to my tastes, it's going the other way.

the admin is getting what it asked for trying to be everything to everyone. a noble idea.....for mediocrity.

800 posts essentially about the finer points of blind testing pretty much tips the scales for me......and they are not done yet. the ultimate listener buzz kill. but that is what WBF is right now more than it's not.

I don't think the admin is trying to be everything to everyone but rather trying to carve out space for everything and everyone. The hardest part is that these spaces can, will and often do overlap.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't think the admin is trying to be everything to everyone but rather trying to carve out space for everything and everyone. The hardest part is that these spaces can, will and often do overlap.

either WBF is a place for strong scientific themed discussions, or it leans toward a strong listener focused perspective.

pick one. they are not likely to co-exist with both at a healthy level......and it is becoming clear that the scientific perspective is more and more dominant over time. I think that those more science focused like that high end audio is part of it. but many serious listeners are not likewise comfortable. I know this listener is less and less so. I see that certainly there are listeners with strong science backgrounds that appreciate this environment and participate. nothing wrong with that. but I'm not one of those.

I know of no other forum with this dichotomy of perspectives.

there is no right or wrong involved here; it's about where one wants to hang out and mingle.....simple as that.

 

[JackD201]

Objective vs subjective -- I wouldn't throw them all under this simple umbrella, but I know the threads you're talking about. They often start out as, for me, anyway, the most interesting threads on WBF. Amir's audible hi res thread, which still rages on without me, is a great example. I don't know how something so nuanced, yet so fundamental to the quality of listening cannot be more interesting than the introduction of another preamp, but different strokes... The problem is that such subjects draw very strong opinions, and when vigorous debate runs short of logic and out of evidence, it often gets personal. People stop talking about the subject of the thread and start attacking other's experience, equipment, taste, hearing, etc.

A couple of the folks who are missing were in every one of those threads and were the first to turn to personal attacks when their positions ran dry. I won't miss them. Their absence will be a good influence on my own behavior here, because I often found their attacks impossible to leave unanswered. Others who have left, or who lurk, intimidated? Maybe they'll be back. It's pretty easy to not open those threads if they're the problem. If the problem is that they want to get into those threads, frame unfounded opinions as facts and have that go unchallenged, they're in the wrong place. And they have plenty of options. There are boards out there where questioning the conventional wisdom is vigorously and briskly shouted down. There are even a few where questioning the conventional wisdom can get you banned while shouting down those who question will not even get you censured. As long as your opinion agrees with the crowd, you'll be quite safe.

Thankfully, WBF is not one of those places. I'll be happy to ban myself if that ever changes.

Tim

Well that would depend on how you define the crowd now wouldn't it. Regardless of how something is stated or presented many of these things questioned are impressions. How do you squeeze proof from that? What logic can you demand from a description of an emotional response? That is a form of shouting down right there if you've got enough likeminded guys with you in that discussion. I'm not defending bad behavior but I don't ever recall any of these guys flying off the handle without provocation particularly those borne from off tangent cherry picked minutiae from their posts.

I've been watching your imaginary thread with interest. I think it is very cleverly constructed in a way similar to a well done FGD build. So clever it borders on being outright sneaky but in a good way. A good way because it is open ended which it ought to be. Interesting because in that one hypothetical situation you will be able to figure out the basic decision making framework of those that responded. You end up back embracing active, I go back to optimizing what you've got first before trigger pulling, Mike goes for the speakers first approach, someone jumps to room treatment, Oldlistener to DSP, Roger goes to his grounding scheme, so on and so forth. In any case, nobody was wrong. All were valid suggestions. Nobody was fighting because nobody has tried pissing higher than anybody else, at least not yet. Nobody would be dumb enough to do it in a hypothetical situation anyhow. Disagree on degrees perhaps but not resort to condemnation or fact needling to justify their approach over another.

Question is, when you see the approaches, you simply see that which is of great interest to the respondent and that these interests are actually not in any sort of opposition especially not of the diametric sort. You end up with a rich blend of ideas as long as nobody thinks it is only his way or the highway OR pushed to the extent that he has to defend his position to the death.

 

[JackD201]

either WBF is a place for strong scientific themed discussions, or it leans toward a strong listener focused perspective.

pick one. they are not likely to co-exist with both at a healthy level......and it is becoming clear that the scientific perspective is more and more dominant over time. I think that those more science focused like that high end audio is part of it. but many serious listeners are not likewise comfortable. I know this listener is less and less so. I see that certainly there are listeners with strong science backgrounds that appreciate this environment and participate. nothing wrong with that. but I'm not one of those.

I know of no other forum with this dichotomy of perspectives.

there is no right or wrong involved here; it's about where one wants to hang out and mingle.....simple as that.

What I am saying is that it is what the members make it. Some members I invited over are gone. Heck my own post count is down just because sometimes I feel I have to construct statements instead of being able to just let my thoughts flow. If I'm tired I look at the thread and just say to myself, "Too much of a hassle man. Not now, maybe later."

What this place needs is for the ornery types to just friggin' loosen up. Participating on a forum doesn't make you rich, won't get you laid, won't make you famous.

That "easy and relaxed" atmosphere is what I want to hang out and mingle in.

Let's see what happens.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What I am saying is that it is what the members make it. Some members I invited over are gone. Heck my own post count is down just because sometimes I feel I have to construct statements instead of being able to just let my thoughts flow. If I'm tired I look at the thread and just say to myself, "Too much of a hassle man. Not now, maybe later."

What this place needs is for the ornery types to just friggin' loosen up. Participating on a forum doesn't make you rich, won't get you laid, won't make you famous.

That "easy and relaxed" atmosphere is what I want to hang out and mingle in.

Let's see what happens.

good times flow when there is a bit of common ground and trust. if there is a bully, or a righteous dude who is going to bust your chops, then you hold back or just don't say anything. who needs the aggravation?

I also think that whether justified or not, serious listeners think that the scientific types are not serious about both listening and pursuing the highest performance. that these science guys are vague about specifics and hide their true listening experiences behind their science lingo. this credibility gap creates an underlying conflict and disconnect. a lack of common ground. serious listeners want respect for their listening perceptions. other serious listeners give that respect. scientific types challenge their listening perspectives and therefore disrespect their views. and at the same time offer no evidence that they have gone to the trouble to actually listen to the gear they are questioning the perceptions of. this is an impossible conflict to overcome.

notice that at the Newport Show; not one science guy from WBF was at Steve's. only serious listeners. this is a fundamental issue about who you want to hang with. if someone really has no apparent interest in listening to high end audio why would I care about their opinions?

I cannot see how serious listeners can ever accept the perspectives of the science guys. so if their posts are a significant part of the forum it can only drive away serious listeners in the long run.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

For the record...I've personally started well over 400 threads since joining. So I know that I've done whatever I can to bring something different to the board. A lot of them were just quick questions or the posting of what I thought was an interesting link, but the majority I think were meant to get a discussion of some kind going. If we can get more of those who call themselves music lovers/fans first to do likewise, then we may get a better balance.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well that would depend on how you define the crowd now wouldn't it. Regardless of how something is stated or presented many of these things questioned are impressions. How do you squeeze proof from that? What logic can you demand from a description of an emotional response? That is a form of shouting down right there if you've got enough likeminded guys with you in that discussion. I'm not defending bad behavior but I don't ever recall any of these guys flying off the handle without provocation particularly those borne from off tangent cherry picked minutiae from their posts.

I've been watching your imaginary thread with interest. I think it is very cleverly constructed in a way similar to a well done FGD build. So clever it borders on being outright sneaky but in a good way. A good way because it is open ended which it ought to be. Interesting because in that one hypothetical situation you will be able to figure out the basic decision making framework of those that responded. You end up back embracing active, I go back to optimizing what you've got first before trigger pulling, Mike goes for the speakers first approach, someone jumps to room treatment, Oldlistener to DSP, Roger goes to his grounding scheme, so on and so forth. In any case, nobody was wrong. All were valid suggestions. Nobody was fighting because nobody has tried pissing higher than anybody else, at least not yet. Nobody would be dumb enough to do it in a hypothetical situation anyhow. Disagree on degrees perhaps but not resort to condemnation or fact needling to justify their approach over another.

Question is, when you see the approaches, you simply see that which is of great interest to the respondent and that these interests are actually not in any sort of opposition especially not of the diametric sort. You end up with a rich blend of ideas as long as nobody thinks it is only his way or the highway OR pushed to the extent that he has to defend his position to the death.

This. If I begin to say that my preferred solution is superior, not just what I prefer, I leave the warmth of my "impressions" and enter the colder place where people who have different impressions are right to ask me if I have anything to support that claim of superiority over their choice. That's where the trouble begins, and crossing that line from "these are my impressions" to "this is better, more natural, more musical," etc. seems to be irresistible.

Tim

 

[LL21]

good times flow when there is a bit of common ground and trust. if there is a bully, or a righteous dude who is going to bust your chops, then you hold back or just don't say anything. who needs the aggravation?...

notice that at the Newport Show; not one science guy from WBF was at Steve's. only serious listeners. this is a fundamental issue about who you want to hang with. if someone really has no apparent interest in listening to high end audio why would I care about their opinions?

I cannot see how serious listeners can ever accept the perspectives of the science guys. so if their posts are a significant part of the forum it can only drive away serious listeners in the long run.

I am with Mike on the first point...I aint here to rumble, just to relax a bit and to learn.

As to learning, I will say some of my favourite kinds of threads involve either a) a serious listener with experience comparing components which interest me or b) a 'scientist' who connects the science to listening.

To illustrate 'B' above, not to 'single out' any names (or exclude any), I really like how Atmasphere, Tmallin and Gary Koh discuss how humans hear, what happens between the performance and the mixing board, and how speaker design elements influence the sound...

 

[the sound of Tao]

I am with Mike on the first point...I aint here to rumble, just to relax a bit and to learn.

As to learning, I will say some of my favourite kinds of threads involve either a) a serious listener with experience comparing components which interest me or b) a 'scientist' who connects the science to listening.

To illustrate 'B' above, not to 'single out' any names (or exclude any), I really like how Atmasphere, Tmallin and Gary Koh discuss how humans hear, what happens between the performance and the mixing board, and how speaker design elements influence the sound...

great posts... +1... this is the kind of science that actually reflects the layers in the listening experience and this kind of discussion brings us wisdom and not just measurements. A deeper understanding of how we listen brings perspective to the diversity of our experiences... so many differences out there, so many different bests for sure.

 

[FrantzM]

good times flow when there is a bit of common ground and trust. if there is a bully, or a righteous dude who is going to bust your chops, then you hold back or just don't say anything. who needs the aggravation?

I also think that whether justified or not, serious listeners think that the scientific types are not serious about both listening and pursuing the highest performance. that these science guys are vague about specifics and hide their true listening experiences behind their science lingo. this credibility gap creates an underlying conflict and disconnect. a lack of common ground. serious listeners want respect for their listening perceptions. other serious listeners give that respect. scientific types challenge their listening perspectives and therefore disrespect their views. and at the same time offer no evidence that they have gone to the trouble to actually listen to the gear they are questioning the perceptions of. this is an impossible conflict to overcome.

notice that at the Newport Show; not one science guy from WBF was at Steve's. only serious listeners. this is a fundamental issue about who you want to hang with. if someone really has no apparent interest in listening to high end audio why would I care about their opinions?

I cannot see how serious listeners can ever accept the perspectives of the science guys. so if their posts are a significant part of the forum it can only drive away serious listeners in the long run.

Mike

I would consider myself both a Science guy and a serious listener. I pursue the highest in music reproduction but within a certain (arbitrary) budget. My personal traiing as an engineer has shown me that without a budget ceiling one doens't obtain great output only great expenses. So I don't just go for things because they are said to be good I try to verify as much as possible before forking out serious dollars in the search for perfection , one by its very nature never ending quest. I do believe that this approach can bear great systems that do not cost a Billionaire mansion down payment. Just my way.

I don;t see anything wrong into a challenge. Unless all that one needs is a validation of one's position. Challenging is not a lack of respect, it is IMHO an healthy approach to propose skepticism. The , fashion, manner and way the challenges is presented is however the main issue. And on those counts both parties are guilty. The put-downs are from both side : from the dreaded; " All gear sound the same" to the "Your system is not of high enough resolution".
I would surmise that in forums one learn mores from dissensions than from accolades. One makes you feel good for a while the other (should?) make you think and try to understand. A personal example. I am one of those scientific type call me a reformed because 10 years ago, I was fundamentalist-analog head with tube leanings who would not balk at buying extremely expensive cables for my system. Not anymore I have learned the lesson and am fully conscious of the fallibility of our senses and perceptions . yet, I am surprised by one particular thread about Digital and Vinyl in which it seems that there is something in Vinyl reproduction that would help the brain in reconstructing the illusion of imaging from 2-channels (could be for more but this was in a 2-ch context). A serious challenge to my view of retaining purity of signal reproduction from end to end. There seems to be a scientific case to mess just a bit with the signal and it cost little to try it. And it that context I can challenge (verify) myself to perceive the benefits by removing one of the strongest bias extent that of knowledge.

I must point out to you it seems that to you the "serious listeners"are the subjectivists. Many would retort that really serious listeners are from all cloth they can be objectivist or subjectivists. Enjoying music is not antithetical to the scientific research: all the contrary as a matter of fact, the better the Science, the better the gear. Your current system is proof of that.

Phelonious pointed toward that tendency of Magister Dixit: " I have a great system, how dare a person to challenge my perception"? Underlying this is the implied superiority of not only the system but of its owner (The Guru?) exceptional hearing acuity. Such should be challenged and is. No problem iwth preference and its worth to a given person. a challenge in waiting when one makes of one's preference the absolute best the Standard.

I do miss some of those people personally. I liked to challenged some of them anyway and hope it has been in good faith and repsct. I wish they would come back and yes I will challenge them if IME there is a such a need.
Last but not least, concerning people who visit people. it means not much IMO. Many don't go to shows. I, personallyhaven't had the time to , although I will likely go this year to the RMAF and hope to meet some of you there. ... I have visited Steve's a number of times and hope to do it again this year. I will likely visit you this year too and ...expect me to challenge some of my beliefs with your system. I hope you will take it in all good faith .

 

[jkeny]

Yea, this hobby is a strange mixture of science/engineering & art - I'm interested in both although the first element is taking up more of my thoughts/time. I'm probably one of the accused standing before you - I certainly was party to Amir's blind listening thread running to 800 posts or whatever. Although I'm a science guy I listen & I listen to people's perception of what they hear. I don't demand proof or otherwise, I simply ask questions & discount it if I think it has no foundation & I can't relate it to my experience. I'm sure most people do the same? I can't understand what drives some people to be the self-appointed protector of the masses. Not particularly noticeable here but it is the usual reason I see on forums for attacks (& they usually get personal) - the protecting of the masses from foolishly spending their money - Foo is the term that I've seen used. There are many worse forums than this one but I have noticed a change on this forum - I have not participated on it for a while as I sensed that most threads were really about who has the most expensive audio kit & not of much interest to me. I sense that this has changed now but I'm not back reading it for long enough to say what I sense the change is.

 

[GaryProtein]

This thread is terrific. Thanks for starting it, Johnny.

Hearing everyone's thoughts is eye opening. There are posts in this thread I fully agree with, others that I disagree with and some whose points I relate to and see both sides, but am non-commital about. The posts here really get you into the minds of the people making their contributions to the forum.

It's like family therapy!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

I would consider myself both a Science guy and a serious listener. I pursue the highest in music reproduction but within a certain (arbitrary) budget. My personal traiing as an engineer has shown me that without a budget ceiling one doens't obtain great output only great expenses. So I don't just go for things because they are said to be good I try to verify as much as possible before forking out serious dollars in the search for perfection , one by its very nature never ending quest. I do believe that this approach can bear great systems that do not cost a Billionaire mansion down payment. Just my way.

Frantz,

as I mentioned in my previous post, there are some serious listeners who are also science guys.

pick one. they are not likely to co-exist with both at a healthy level......and it is becoming clear that the scientific perspective is more and more dominant over time. I think that those more science focused like that high end audio is part of it. but many serious listeners are not likewise comfortable. I know this listener is less and less so. I see that certainly there are listeners with strong science backgrounds that appreciate this environment and participate. nothing wrong with that. but I'm not one of those.

and your style is to always qualify your challenges explaining your perspective.

I don;t see anything wrong into a challenge. Unless all that one needs is a validation of one's position. Challenging is not a lack of respect, it is IMHO an healthy approach to propose skepticism. The , fashion, manner and way the challenges is presented is however the main issue. And on those counts both parties are guilty. The put-downs are from both side : from the dreaded; " All gear sound the same" to the "Your system is not of high enough resolution".
I would surmise that in forums one learn mores from dissensions than from accolades. One makes you feel good for a while the other (should?) make you think and try to understand. A personal example. I am one of those scientific type call me a reformed because 10 years ago, I was fundamentalist-analog head with tube leanings who would not balk at buying extremely expensive cables for my system. Not anymore I have learned the lesson and am fully conscious of the fallibility of our senses and perceptions . yet, I am surprised by one particular thread about Digital and Vinyl in which it seems that there is something in Vinyl reproduction that would help the brain in reconstructing the illusion of imaging from 2-channels (could be for more but this was in a 2-ch context). A serious challenge to my view of retaining purity of signal reproduction from end to end. There seems to be a scientific case to mess just a bit with the signal and it cost little to try it. And it that context I can challenge (verify) myself to perceive the benefits by removing one of the strongest bias extent that of knowledge.

again; while we often disagree by degrees, you maintain respectful considerations of listening. and you have done the work to know about gear and have clear interest in high end gear.....and participate in discussions about high end gear. so you are not the 'secretive mysterious science guy' who always measures out the barest of rationalizations of his experience to get by.

I must point out to you it seems that to you the "serious listeners"are the subjectivists. Many would retort that really serious listeners are from all cloth they can be objectivist or subjectivists. Enjoying music is not antithetical to the scientific research: all the contrary as a matter of fact, the better the Science, the better the gear. Your current system is proof of that.

serious listeners know what they are talking about when they speak about high end gear. they have done the work of listening to gear. and they continue to pursue that experience.

it's not the gear you own, it is the effort you make at listening to gear and wanting to know about it. and if you are only a music guy, then great. just don't crap on the gear guys.

honestly; if someone demonstrates over time that they really are not familiar with most high end gear, and don't put the energy into listening to it.......I really am not interested in hanging with them. they have a whole different hobby that they are in. they are in the hobby of sniping at my hobby. they are 'anti-me'. and while they may be smart and eloquent, they offer me nothing. and when they trend toward becoming dominant in a forum where I'm in......I'm gone.

nothing personal. it's not a moral issue. it's a fun issue.

Phelonious pointed toward that tendency of Magister Dixit: " I have a great system, how dare a person to challenge my perception"? Underlying this is the implied superiority of not only the system but of its owner (The Guru?) exceptional hearing acuity. Such should be challenged and is. No problem iwth preference and its worth to a given person. a challenge in waiting when one makes of one's preference the absolute best the Standard.

humility and respect are always preferred. in a hobby where people make huge commitments and have considerable passion human nature will manifest itself. high end audio is not immune to this. but if one comes to what holds itself up as a high end forum and has an agenda to knock these folks down to size without first investing into the effort of the experience then that is much worse than the bluster of overzealousness.....and not acceptable to me.

I do miss some of those people personally. I liked to challenged some of them anyway and hope it has been in good faith and repsct. I wish they would come back and yes I will challenge them if IME there is a such a need.
Last but not least, concerning people who visit people. it means not much IMO. Many don't go to shows. I, personallyhaven't had the time to , although I will likely go this year to the RMAF and hope to meet some of you there. ... I have visited Steve's a number of times and hope to do it again this year. I will likely visit you this year too and ...expect me to challenge some of my beliefs with your system. I hope you will take it in all good faith .

I do.

and as far as attending high end audio shows, my point was more to speak generally about which group has the passion and interest in what I view as high end audio, and which group has some other alternate passion. and what that might mean.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

This thread is terrific. Thanks for starting it, Johnny.

Hearing everyone's thoughts is eye opening. There are posts in this thread I fully agree with, others that I disagree with and some whose points I relate to and see both sides, but am non-commital about. The posts here really get you into the minds of the people making their contributions to the forum.

It's like family therapy!

Thank you Gary?! It's nice to see people jumping in with their thoughts. This is OUR forum and if we are committed to it then dialogue such as this can help.

 

[puroagave]

Objective vs subjective -- I wouldn't throw them all under this simple umbrella, but I know the threads you're talking about. They often start out as, for me, anyway, the most interesting threads on WBF. Amir's audible hi res thread, which still rages on without me, is a great example. I don't know how something so nuanced, yet so fundamental to the quality of listening cannot be more interesting than the introduction of another preamp, but different strokes... The problem is that such subjects draw very strong opinions, and when vigorous debate runs short of logic and out of evidence, it often gets personal. People stop talking about the subject of the thread and start attacking other's experience, equipment, taste, hearing, etc.

A couple of the folks who are missing were in every one of those threads and were the first to turn to personal attacks when their positions ran dry. I won't miss them. Their absence will be a good influence on my own behavior here, because I often found their attacks impossible to leave unanswered. Others who have left, or who lurk, intimidated? Maybe they'll be back. It's pretty easy to not open those threads if they're the problem. If the problem is that they want to get into those threads, frame unfounded opinions as facts and have that go unchallenged, they're in the wrong place. And they have plenty of options. There are boards out there where questioning the conventional wisdom is vigorously and briskly shouted down. There are even a few where questioning the conventional wisdom can get you banned while shouting down those who question will not even get you censured. As long as your opinion agrees with the crowd, you'll be quite safe.

Thankfully, WBF is not one of those places. I'll be happy to ban myself if that ever changes.

Tim

Tim, we're probably more alike than not. when i entered in this hobby years ago i had an insatiable appetiite to corroborate what i heard in a system/recording with the science behind it. i participated in every stereophile ABX test they did at shows, i was as big a skeptic as they came with regards to tweeks, cables etc. The difference today is i'm inclined to find out for myself and not refer to AES papers, certain measurements or quoting what the 'experts' think i should hear but what sounds best to me. my system today is a hodge podge of old and new technology (mostly old) because its what sounds 'right' to my ears.

In your case, correct me if i'm wrong, you have a system you're not likely to upgrade soon and suits your ideal of a 'logically' put together system based on your predisposed bias or whatever. Its clear you're not looking to try new hardware and have little to no interest in discussions about the sound of this preamp or those speakers. I would venture to guess that the majority of people that tune into WBF are the opposite, having a passing interest in tech but more likely want to read about the latest and greatest hardware.

its always unfortunate when threads denigrate into name calling but its a two way street. They also found your comments "impossible to leave unanswered" which is part of the the problem. the fact that they decided to leave and you're here doesn't mean you won or they won it just means we all loose their contributions.

 

[Garth]

...