I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have a passion for what I do. I'm glad you came along because your post is dead on.
I really miss the participation of.....
- Thread starter Johnny Vinyl
- Start date
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have a passion for what I do. I'm glad you came along because your post is dead on.
You need to look at where they do still post, and what threads they participate in. They're certainly not going to stay where it's more trouble to them than it's worth.
(For what it's worth, I started following WBF because if its technical content. Nowadays, not so much.)
Steve sent me a private email. He noticed that I had several posts on "another forum" and wanted to know why I don't participate on WBF more often. This is the response that I replied with:
-----
I am not a particular fan of the other site. However, when someone asks me a question I will answer it. I don't have a lot of time for chit chat or for cable manufacturer haters, so I usually confine myself to a minimalist approach to posts.
I would be happy to answer questions about power related issues or about our products if asked on WBF.
-----
Most technical experts are also industry insiders. They have industry friends, financial associations, media affiliations and small numbers of envious wannabes and a few haters. Unlike audiophile consumers, an industry insider is not entirely 100% free to express their opinion without repercussions and hurt feelings from their associations. Or, the haters look for any opportunity to bushwhack any and every post. So many find it easier to simply abstain from audio forum participation.
Both Grant Samuelson and I participate to ensure that our products are not misrepresented. We also appreciate the opportunity to explain our perspective or technical rationale when asked. We tend to abstain from threads that are simple expressions of personal preference between products or brands and we don't appreciate being asked to compare our products to another specific product since that manufacturer or their dealer may be represented here and it would simply be in bad form. We leave those opinions to the consumers.
However, non-product specific questions about our area of expertise are appreciated.
-----
I am not a particular fan of the other site. However, when someone asks me a question I will answer it. I don't have a lot of time for chit chat or for cable manufacturer haters, so I usually confine myself to a minimalist approach to posts.
I would be happy to answer questions about power related issues or about our products if asked on WBF.
-----
Most technical experts are also industry insiders. They have industry friends, financial associations, media affiliations and small numbers of envious wannabes and a few haters. Unlike audiophile consumers, an industry insider is not entirely 100% free to express their opinion without repercussions and hurt feelings from their associations. Or, the haters look for any opportunity to bushwhack any and every post. So many find it easier to simply abstain from audio forum participation.
Both Grant Samuelson and I participate to ensure that our products are not misrepresented. We also appreciate the opportunity to explain our perspective or technical rationale when asked. We tend to abstain from threads that are simple expressions of personal preference between products or brands and we don't appreciate being asked to compare our products to another specific product since that manufacturer or their dealer may be represented here and it would simply be in bad form. We leave those opinions to the consumers.
However, non-product specific questions about our area of expertise are appreciated.
There are several possibilities I know
audioshark.org
audioaficionado.org
audiokarma.org
audiogon.com
avsforum.com
of course audioasylum.com but I don't think that's what MadFloyd meant. I'm sure there are more.
Hhmmm, I have not noticed this was a technical forum 
I am here because of the great music I have discovered! (Well, a tip or two have helped me achieve a decent sounding system) as well as get to know great individuals.
I am here because of the great music I have discovered! (Well, a tip or two have helped me achieve a decent sounding system) as well as get to know great individuals.
Summer is historically a slow time for audio. People are vacationing and spending more time outdoor. As winter approaches we tend to spend more time indoors with our audio systems.
I agree that all the forums have been slow but WBF seems to have more activity than most. The long threads like Amir's seem to keep people interested even if they are not active participants.
There are many people here with a great deal of expertise and valuable insights to share. As is the case with great talk shows, the interviewer or questioner is often the key to an interesting show. I think it is the same with forums. There is great value in a person that can ask original and thoughtful questions. Sometimes you may have a good question but may think that it is too simple or that other people may not be interested or that you may have to "prove" something. This tends to limit the range and scope of the topics on the forum.
I have noticed that some posters that some consider annoying are actually good for the forum because they act as catalysts to conversation. Perhaps we should not be quick to come to THE answer or to shut the conversation down with a definitive opinion. So, a bit more tolerance and a tone of encouragement to go outside the boundaries of what you think you know. Just a thought.
It is this ability to question that makes some of the best writers interesting. It is not that a famous writer's opinion is better than your own, it is rather their ability to look or listen in a manner that is different or insightful that makes them interesting to read. Perhaps some moderators could take on this responsibility to act as catalysts to discussion topics. Amir is a good example of a person that has this ability. He obviously thinks and ponders things deeply and doesn't just spit out his knee jerk opinion on every topic.
I agree that all the forums have been slow but WBF seems to have more activity than most. The long threads like Amir's seem to keep people interested even if they are not active participants.
There are many people here with a great deal of expertise and valuable insights to share. As is the case with great talk shows, the interviewer or questioner is often the key to an interesting show. I think it is the same with forums. There is great value in a person that can ask original and thoughtful questions. Sometimes you may have a good question but may think that it is too simple or that other people may not be interested or that you may have to "prove" something. This tends to limit the range and scope of the topics on the forum.
I have noticed that some posters that some consider annoying are actually good for the forum because they act as catalysts to conversation. Perhaps we should not be quick to come to THE answer or to shut the conversation down with a definitive opinion. So, a bit more tolerance and a tone of encouragement to go outside the boundaries of what you think you know. Just a thought.
It is this ability to question that makes some of the best writers interesting. It is not that a famous writer's opinion is better than your own, it is rather their ability to look or listen in a manner that is different or insightful that makes them interesting to read. Perhaps some moderators could take on this responsibility to act as catalysts to discussion topics. Amir is a good example of a person that has this ability. He obviously thinks and ponders things deeply and doesn't just spit out his knee jerk opinion on every topic.
An interesting confirmation that I picked up from another forum where a guy changed viewpoint from "all X sound the same" to a realisation that it was his negative expectation bias that prevented him from hearing the differences - was that he now viewed the arguments for the case he once thought absurd (all X do not sound the same) as now reasonable & the ones he once thought reasonable now seemed more absurd.
Not only was it unusual to see someone shift position on a forum but to openly admit to what was holding him back & then to openly express the shift in perspective that he was experiencing was unexpected & encouraging.
Funny old world, isn't it?
Not only was it unusual to see someone shift position on a forum but to openly admit to what was holding him back & then to openly express the shift in perspective that he was experiencing was unexpected & encouraging.
Funny old world, isn't it?
It might be funny but expectation bias is real and is a fact. For example, if you break this in for 1000 hours you will hear less grain, etc, it plants the seed, and for some the seed grows as planted. This forum has had flip floppers on it as well.
This guy changed because he did the ABX test on WIner's files & could hear the difference whereas sighted he could not hear the difference in the 20 pass file. He previously couldn't hear differences between DACs also
So yes expectation bias is a powerful thing, tomelex, in this case negative expectation bias prevented him from hearing differences that were there.
I would say that this nocebo effect is much more prevalent than realised & is hardly ever tested for - the emphasis is always on testing for false positives, not false negatives - that was the point of the last 50 pages on Amir's ABX thread - the use of controls in blind tests - please don't rake it up again.
MY post above was in reply to cgabriel's post & the piece you just highlighted - how sometime what seems an absurd position & argument is often because of a bias in thinking & how when a viewpoint flips that absurdity also flips. It's just an interesting observation, that's all.
Finally, I wouldn't say this person was a flip-flopper - his perception opened up to being able to perceive what is actually there - he's much more aware of how his thinking & external pressures can influence his perception
Last edited:
What conditions caused him to assume that the different results were due to loss of expectation bias? How did he lose his expectation bias? Perhaps most importantly, what controls were in place to screen for those who cannot or will not hear subtle differences; how did a subject with such a perceptual shortcoming end up in the group at all?
Or is this just anecdotal? It probably is, but I was a bit thrown by the use of "confirmation."
Tim
ON EDIT: Sorry, I missed this post:
jkeny -
Ah...audiophile forum ABX testing, which, according to standards you have set elsewhere, is anecdotal at best, so no, nothing is confirmed here. And actually, if this "test" met your demands for controls, and the statistical demands for confirmation, there's still nothing here that points to negative expectation bias. It could simply be showing what Amir's tests have shown -- That ABX testing is effective in revealing subtle differences that are not heard in casual, sighted listening.
Tim
Ad hominem ...Nothing new as argumentation techniques but an interesting knee-jerk reaction ...
I suppose I'm mixing up two threads here - the "digital more like vinyl" thread in which JackD's post "asking Tim if he got out of the wrong side of bed" appeared after another agenda driven post from Tim, just before this one, on this thread.
As far as I'm concerned, Tim was just trying to shoehorn an OT comment here & continue an argument that ran for 50 pages or so on Amir's thread about blind testing & controls something that I'm not willing to open up again so nothing to say on it other than why is he posting this here. Consider this ad hom if you want.
Last edited:
Frantz, if you really want to get back into that argument about blind testing & controls, as you seem to be suggesting I should have done in reply to Tim's post, then fire away!
Mark Seaton
WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
I've had a pretty busy summer, but stumbled across this thread a week or 2 late...
Most often anyone who has become well versed in some technical subject was mentored by someone else who took the time to share what they had learned themselves through lots of time, effort and someone else's generosity. My engineer tendencies find gratification in helping solve problems, and in particular I enjoy finding correlations to enthusiasts' observations beyond dismissing all as expectation bias.
When I do post here or elsewhere, I am much more inclined to post more if there is continued exchange with questions, experiences, etc. In the best cases someone is willing to investigate a similar matter in their own system and do some experimentation where something was learned or improved by either party. As many have expressed here, ideally such forums provide both informational and social exchanges with others having overlapping interests. If responses are extremes of either dis-interest or complete dismissal, exchanges fizzle out. I value exchanges with other enthusiasts to hear what they are enjoying, what they are trying to improve next, and what hurdles, frustrations or problems they are encountering. When common threads start to appear, it gets the gears turning on fun ideas or solutions.
Most often anyone who has become well versed in some technical subject was mentored by someone else who took the time to share what they had learned themselves through lots of time, effort and someone else's generosity. My engineer tendencies find gratification in helping solve problems, and in particular I enjoy finding correlations to enthusiasts' observations beyond dismissing all as expectation bias.
When I do post here or elsewhere, I am much more inclined to post more if there is continued exchange with questions, experiences, etc. In the best cases someone is willing to investigate a similar matter in their own system and do some experimentation where something was learned or improved by either party. As many have expressed here, ideally such forums provide both informational and social exchanges with others having overlapping interests. If responses are extremes of either dis-interest or complete dismissal, exchanges fizzle out. I value exchanges with other enthusiasts to hear what they are enjoying, what they are trying to improve next, and what hurdles, frustrations or problems they are encountering. When common threads start to appear, it gets the gears turning on fun ideas or solutions.
Similar threads
