I really miss the participation of.....

[rbbert]

either WBF is a place for strong scientific themed discussions, or it leans toward a strong listener focused perspective...

Mike, if you look at the "new posts" rather than the "activity stream" I think you'll see the overwhelming majority of topics are subjective equipment or music related (or off-topic) and very few are technical. At least that has been my experience here for the last couple of years

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, if you look at the "new posts" rather than the "activity stream" I think you'll see the overwhelming majority of topics are subjective equipment or music related (or off-topic) and very few are technical. At least that has been my experience here for the last couple of years

yes; but the post activity, which reflects interest, is more on technical issues. which suggests what agendas are for who is actually active.

and it's the issue of exactly who desires to be active on WBF that is the issue. and why that is. and where things are headed. and who cares.

 

[rbbert]

yes; but the post activity, which reflects interest, is more on technical issues. which suggests what agendas are for who is actually active.

and it's the issue of exactly who desires to be active on WBF that is the issue. and why that is. and where things are headed. and who cares.

I guess I kind of look at more from the perspective of posts opened rather than the amount of participation. In fact on almost any forum I tend to stay away from the busiest topics because they are usually the most contentious. Getting drawn into them often brings out the worst in me.

 

[RogerD]

There are 3 areas that seem to polarise;Subjective vs Objective,Analog vs Digital,and testing methods. The trends of prices in the high end seem to be a button too. After while it all becomes boring to a lot of people. Now what I do find intersting is the "why", between the differences and I like the fundamentals. I think most people visit and participate to learn and express thier experiences about all things in this hobby. I think most active posters don't have a agenda,they might be stuck in a rut or that is what they feel is important,or they feel most comfortable with. I speak of my own inward introspection here. Civility on a forum is important with this subject in general,some can control themselves,others let emotion take over. Anyway nice thread.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Two of the heavy hitters here that left here, were always in the technical threads, was it actually that there was more involvement in technical threads then you have realized Mike?

If we added a new sub-forum entitled something like "technical threads and posts only" , I guess you are saying that mosts posts would occur there. And I would say that a couple of those heavy hitters would post in those technical threads all the time if they were back here.

I do understand your preferences and I would agree that the actual activity within those types of post is not as much in the technical threads but I don't think it ever was as much as in the technical threads. However, that's just a seat of my pants impression as I an not going to do a big study on this. I may be totally wrong though....

the trend toward more technical post activity is not anything new; it's been an issue since the beginning and a result of the approach the admin made establishing the forum. they established a number of 'expert' subforums and also brought a group of more technical members from AVS. this 'vibe' attracted other techies who might not have been as embraced as they were here. this 'designed in conflict' of WBF has resulted in a number of potential high end participants to bounce off of this forum since the beginning. i feel that WBF has had much positive too, and believe that it's diversity has it's benefits. so i'm not all negative. however; i think that the momentum of the forum is now clearly toward a 'vibe' and focus different than my own. not a bad thing, just what it is.

i don't know exactly what happened to the two departed members; however i had numerous PM's from both of them over the years voicing their frustrations. so i can guess what happened.

 

[LL21]

Mike, if you look at the "new posts" rather than the "activity stream" I think you'll see the overwhelming majority of topics are subjective equipment or music related (or off-topic) and very few are technical. At least that has been my experience here for the last couple of years

Yes, I concur. I recall participating heavily (mainly in asking questions) of some of the techno/designers who doing their own NOS DACs. I really enjoyed that. From time to time I will ask about cable network boxes (today), or isolation, and it has been always really great to get technical answers (addressed in layman's terms) that help explain why things happen.

I just remembered Duke Lejeune is another great technical member here who explains things in a very understandable way...I think I can still recall his explanations of direct, dipole, mbl-type speakers and how they work and why they sound the way they do. Quite cool.

 

[jazdoc]

There are 3 areas that seem to polarise;Subjective vs Objective,Analog vs Digital,and testing methods. The trends of prices in the high end seem to be a button too. After while it all becomes boring to a lot of people. Now what I do find intersting is the "why", between the differences and I like the fundamentals. I think most people visit and participate to learn and express thier experiences about all things in this hobby. I think most active posters don't have a agenda,they might be stuck in a rut or that is what they feel is important,or they feel most comfortable with. I speak of my own inward introspection here. Civility on a forum is important with this subject in general,some can control themselves,others let emotion take over. Anyway nice thread.

Roger,
Spot on observations. I often find the tone of posts off putting, rather than their content (which I may or may not have the technical expertise to understand). I'm not an equipment geek and I don't aspire to the state of the art of sound reproduction. However, I admire those with technical chops and the passion of those who aspire to the cutting edge of the hobby like Mike L. I think what Mike articulates is a shared concern that oft times, those with a more technical bent use "statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."

One of my favorite WBF contributors is Andre Marc. He and I are polar opposites politically; he's a digital guy and I'm analog, but we connect over a shared passion for music that for many on this forum is outside of their comfort zone. I am extremely grateful for his posts which have directed me to a variety of new music; I don't like it all, but will always find out more about his recommendations (hint, hint Andre )

 

[FrantzM]

Mike

I wonder truly what is wrong with technical. Our hobby is heavily technical after all. a piano is all about vibes, an amp is not ... its purpose is not to produce music it is to reproduce it .. a technical endeavor. It something is not frame ina some kind of technical terms how can you describe it? Think about your listening room for example. You did have to be exposed to the (technical ) fact that it has a given of measurements which define its dimensions and that said dimensions introduced some aberrations that needed to be dealt with in a technical , not vibe, fashion. As in anything there is some part of it that is art... Ask any person in IT there are people that treat programming like an "Art" and their programs reflect it... Apple must have a legion of those ... Yet the endeavor remains eminently technical. However much you claim of not being interested by things technical, the technical underpinning of your systems is , pardon the term sound. That is not a "vibe" thing. Even vibrations, the real "vibes" are dealt in a fundamental fashion in your system ... So what is wrong with technical threads?

On that note I miss the participation of industries luminaries such as Sean Olive, Levantier, Dr Geddes, Tom Danley, Mark Seaton (he post one in a blue moon but his recent output is as scant as ice in the Sahara), Nyal Melior (Wonderful HTPC thread BTW thanks Nyal!!) et al. These people made this forum different IMHO.bringing hard real science to what we truly perceive. I remember having finally understood the need for superior power after reading a post by Tom Danley in which he explained that some common sound actually are much louder than the usual SPL measurements would suggest. That helped or Sean Olive articles on subwoofer. We do have some extremely knowledgeable people on the board and from time to time they chime in but it seems much less than before. Wayne Plufghaust is among those and we have people that are just heavy-hitting enthusiasts on the technical side whose posts count has been stagnant..

And yes, we also have enthusiasts like you , like microstrip whose control of things technical is not to be underestimated although he tends to deny that side of him... We have jack and Gary Koh and Amir and Dallas Justice and mojave and ... several names I am forgetting right niow who marry the techical with what you call the vbes .. It would lessen the value of this WBF if it were all about vibes like the Asylum .. where you would see threads lke that .. I put a glass of wine on my speaker and it made the sound light .. followed by a chorus of wow.. same for me , did you try wiskey, etc ... Does that truly help?
And we have an incredible resources of GREAT MUSIC posts a sticky called ... What's spinning tonight or such .. Technical? no! Vibes? ABSOLUTELY.. and of the greatest level

The hobby is technical, better embrace its true nature and enjoy it more

P.S there are a lot of "vibes" posts too from which one can pick and choose ... I miss the posts of Keith W bTW where is he. His takes on food was the real deal... And his love of Apple products is being missed too

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Frantz,

i've said it multiple times on this thread.....it's not a moral issue, or a right or wrong issue.....for me it's simply whether the forum has attraction for me, or others similar minded to me. and is it trending toward my interests or away?

nothing wrong with technical discussions. but that is not what i want to focus on. so does this forum fit me?

there is no person or personality on WBF that is off-putting to me, so it's not that i want to avoid anyone. however; i look around and mostly the people i most relate to in this hobby are simply not here (or not participating). and so i must consider what is best for me.

i think i've said enough on this subject. i speak for no one but myself.

 

[rbbert]

Great post Frantz!

 

[RogerD]

Look,it's all good. A week ago I read about Stillpoints and what others were experiencing. I remembered that I had something similiar that I had purchased 20+ years ago and had forgotten about and tried them under my DAC. I thought they were beneficial,great! Frank has his new Torus power conditioner and that improved his system as it should,great. There really is something for everybody here. I wouldn't expect somebody to post everyday here,that would burn me out,but we all love music and strive to reproduce it in the best of are abilities and as a individual as we see fit. Shouldn't matter what are monetary investment is or if we have the latest and greatest. I think we all relate to each other in some way or another.

 

[still-one]

I may be repeating myself but I believe most people seek out forums or websites where they find like minded individuals. Other than a few contrarians who love to argue why would you hang out in forums or threads where you have little in common with the majority of visitors? There is a also a difference in perusing a site or thread to see what is being discussed but why would you go to the Fox News site if your political preferences lay elsewhere. If you follow Michigan football are you going to engage on Ohio States Elven Warriors site? There are several audio sites that are very close minded regarding cables, tweaks and even the benefits on 5 figure audio systems. Is that where those of us who seek out "What's Best" really want to hang out. I want to hear what others are buying and why they feel it is "Best" for them. What's "Best" for me may be something different entirely but I know I will not find it in a '70's era receiver or set of speakers.

I was drawn to this site to discuss hi-end audio. I am in awe of the technical knowledge of some individuals here. I don't understand why some individuals feel the need to repeatedly argue their position in threads that go on for +800 posts when no-one is going to change their mind. Give it up.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

On that note I miss the participation of industries luminaries such as Sean Olive, Levantier, Dr Geddes, Tom Danley, Mark Seaton (he post one in a blue moon but his recent output is as scant as ice in the Sahara), Nyal Melior (Wonderful HTPC thread BTW thanks Nyal!!) et al. These people made this forum different IMHO.bringing hard real science to what we truly perceive. I remember having finally understood the need for superior power after reading a post by Tom Danley in which he explained that some common sound actually are much louder than the usual SPL measurements would suggest. That helped or Sean Olive articles on subwoofer. We do have some extremely knowledgeable people on the board and from time to time they chime in but it seems much less than before. Wayne Plufghaust is among those and we have people that are just heavy-hitting enthusiasts on the technical side whose posts count has been stagnant..

These are the people I miss. These are people the board is weaker for having lost.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

These are the people I miss. These are people the board is weaker for having lost.

Tim

"Having lost" sounds like an indictment. These people have to make a living and i'm not sure all have the time to participate like most of us here. Glad that everything is archived and can be used as a reference.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, we're probably more alike than not. when i entered in this hobby years ago i had an insatiable appetiite to corroborate what i heard in a system/recording with the science behind it. i participated in every stereophile ABX test they did at shows, i was as big a skeptic as they came with regards to tweeks, cables etc. The difference today is i'm inclined to find out for myself and not refer to AES papers, certain measurements or quoting what the 'experts' think i should hear but what sounds best to me. my system today is a hodge podge of old and new technology (mostly old) because its what sounds 'right' to my ears.

In your case, correct me if i'm wrong, you have a system you're not likely to upgrade soon and suits your ideal of a 'logically' put together system based on your predisposed bias or whatever. Its clear you're not looking to try new hardware and have little to no interest in discussions about the sound of this preamp or those speakers. I would venture to guess that the majority of people that tune into WBF are the opposite, having a passing interest in tech but more likely want to read about the latest and greatest hardware.

its always unfortunate when threads denigrate into name calling but its a two way street. They also found your comments "impossible to leave unanswered" which is part of the the problem. the fact that they decided to leave and you're here doesn't mean you won or they won it just means we all loose their contributions.

I'm not likely to do any upgrading any time soon. I love music and I love audio. I find the discussions like the ones we've had about Harman's speaker testing, and the psychoacoustics of MP3s and Amir's testing of RBCD against hi-res, and the creation of the stereo illusion, and...the list is pretty long, really. I find this stuff fascinating and educational. So that's the stuff I read and participate in, not the gear threads. I'm here because this is one of the only places on the net where those kinds of discussions take place with any balance between science and subjectivity. I have no use for the Asylum, and none for Hydrogen audio. Not my thing. Mike seems to think the balance is shifting toward the objectivist side; I firmly disagree. The list of pretty distinguished audio scientists who no longer participate here tells me that the opposite is true. I hold on, waiting for the next thread of substance from Amir, quietly wondering if Sean Olive will ever post here again.

I hardly ever open the gear threads. Is that wrong?

Tim

 

[jazdoc]

I'm not likely to do any upgrading any time soon. I love music and I love audio. I find the discussions like the ones we've had about Harman's speaker testing, and the psychoacoustics of MP3s and Amir's testing of RBCD against hi-res, and the creation of the stereo illusion, and...the list is pretty long, really. I find this stuff fascinating and educational. So that's the stuff I read and participate in, not the gear threads. I'm here because this is one of the only places on the net where those kinds of discussions take place with any balance between science and subjectivity. I have no use for the Asylum, and none for Hydrogen audio. Not my thing. Mike seems to think the balance is shifting toward the objectivist side; I firmly disagree. The list of pretty distinguished audio scientists who no longer participate here tells me that the opposite is true. I hold on, waiting for the next thread of substance from Amir, quietly wondering if Sean Olive will ever post here again.

I hardly ever open the gear threads. Is that wrong?

Tim

Interesting observations Tim.

A question: Do you think that the aforementioned technical experts are less apt to post at WBF because of the less technically oriented forum members or those who are more data driven?

 

[RogerD]

I'm not likely to do any upgrading any time soon. I love music and I love audio. I find the discussions like the ones we've had about Harman's speaker testing, and the psychoacoustics of MP3s and Amir's testing of RBCD against hi-res, and the creation of the stereo illusion, and...the list is pretty long, really. I find this stuff fascinating and educational. So that's the stuff I read and participate in, not the gear threads. I'm here because this is one of the only places on the net where those kinds of discussions take place with any balance between science and subjectivity. I have no use for the Asylum, and none for Hydrogen audio. Not my thing. Mike seems to think the balance is shifting toward the objectivist side; I firmly disagree. The list of pretty distinguished audio scientists who no longer participate here tells me that the opposite is true. I hold on, waiting for the next thread of substance from Amir, quietly wondering if Sean Olive will ever post here again.

I hardly ever open the gear threads. Is that wrong?

Tim

Interesting observations Tim.

A question: Do you think that the aforementioned technical experts are less apt to post at WBF because of the less technically oriented forum members or those who are more data driven?

It would be pretty hard for me to have a conversation with Steve Williams about being a patient. Not all of us fit Tim's criteria. It is what it is.

 

[rbbert]

What's the motivation for a technical expert to (Internet)post anywhere?

 

[Old Listener]

What's the motivation for a technical expert to (Internet)post anywhere?

1. Visibility to a new audience.

2. Intelligent readers who appreciate what the expert contributes, who ask serious questions and participate in worthwhile conversations.

3. A chance to talk about what he/she loves.

 

[Garth]

...