I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike - Since the LFS is not suitable for our application on the NDW-23A are you still certain that the TS-300 is the wrong way to go?

I still am considering the TS-300 because the stand for it can match my other stands and I could buy the TS-300 in the future and just drop it in if I wanted to experiment in the future wih active isolation.

Why is active leveling of no use to us with the AS turntable?

the TS-300 starts at $5k+ more than the NDW-23A lists for, and you still need a table......so depending on that table that could be quite a bit more. the NDW-23A is ready to go as is.

manual leveling is quite easy. ask Tim for the YouTube link for the AVI leveling. piece of cake. and ask Tim about what advantage active leveling offers.

the only advantage would be you could get a standard table then add the TS-300 later.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Mike.

That is the thing -- I think there is a very good chance I will not want to mess with David's recipe by adding active isolation under the AS.

(I am very excited about adding Herzan active isolation under the Io control unit, and about adding passive Stacore isolation under the VTLs.)

 

[rockitman]

Thank you, Christian.

I am still trying to go figure out whether I want to go with the NDW-23 Active or have the stand for the AS match the other two custom stands I am planning to order. I still like the idea of the AS stand matching the other two stands, and not getting any isolation platform initially for the AS, but having the AS stand able to accomodate an active isolation platform if I want to add one in the future.

Tim is sending me a color sample book of automotive paint colors which Herzan can have an outside vendor use to powder coat the stands.

As Mike said and I priced it....NDW-23 far more economical then building your own stand. It is a proven, well thought out design that is currently used in the scientific community.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, Dave.
Still interested in feedback as to this "tuning" aspect of AS2000.
Ie set speed correctly, and this can be maintained with any number of belt tensions, positions etc.
I'm struggling a little to get my head around this.

 

[microstrip]

Guys, Dave.
Still interested in feedback as to this "tuning" aspect of AS2000.
Ie set speed correctly, and this can be maintained with any number of belt tensions, positions etc.
I'm struggling a little to get my head around this.

At some time we used to replace the rubber belts with dental dental floss and silk threads in turntables that could adjust tension. The advice was to adjust speed with a strobe and then release the belt tension just to the point the strobe would start showing a slowdown. I still do it on the Forsell.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Guys, Dave.
Still interested in feedback as to this "tuning" aspect of AS2000.
Ie set speed correctly, and this can be maintained with any number of belt tensions, positions etc.
I'm struggling a little to get my head around this.

from talking to David here is my view.

you need to find someone in your neck of the woods with a Micro Seiki or similar tt using high mass/thread drive in a similar way to get an appreciation for the approach and what it's about. then imagine 3x-4x the mass and effect involved.

you have an air bed and all this inertia so the belt/thread has effectively little, but very steady, resistance, all that mass does not want to change speeds (a cartridge in a groove is not going to effect it), and it's all about the perfect steady motor/controller and the 'right' amount of tension. it's this level of tension where the art and feel is involved. trial, error, and experience. belts/thread wear and stretch so there is a level of maintenance/care in the equation. just like checking cartridge set-up from time to time.

you have to invest in some effort to look for yourself if you want more than that. I heard it so it's easy for me to drink the cool aid. it's burned into my memory.

 

[PeterA]

Guys, Dave.
Still interested in feedback as to this "tuning" aspect of AS2000.
Ie set speed correctly, and this can be maintained with any number of belt tensions, positions etc.
I'm struggling a little to get my head around this.

Hi Marc,

That is an excellent question and I asked a similar one up thread. Here was my attempt at answering the question in response to something the Mike wrote. Post # 231.

Mike, this is a fascinating and wonderful description of what we can do as users to both give us a better understanding of our gear and improve our overall music enjoyment. I presume by "tuning" you mean something other than ultimate speed accuracy and consistency, as I have not heard of people confirming these attributes by ear but rather by instrument measurement. I have noticed that when my belt wears and stretches over time, and I replace it with a new one, that I often have to readjust for speed with my measuring device.

I imagine that belt tension in the case of the AS table would effect things like the quality of a note's individual parts: transient, sustain, and decay, and the relationships between musical flow, dynamics, energy, and space. I agree that these qualities are captured by ear and live in the realm of subjective preference. The interaction with the rest of one's system will also be paramount, which is why I suspect you and the other owners may well arrive at very different individual motor/plinth settings, belt types and support solutions. Also fascinating will be your respective choices in arms.

I look forward to reading the many reports that I hope are written in these pages in six months or so. Great stuff!

It is unclear to me if Mike and David are talking about speed with the belt/thread tension or something else. I suspect the tension effects the speed of the platter in some way, perhaps not in a way measurable by common instruments but it must clearly be audible for these guys to notice it and tune/adjust it by ear. My guess, and it is only a guess at this point, is along the lines of what I wrote above.

I agree, I would be interested in a better explanation from David or someone who knows about this topic from experience with the Micro Seiki or similar tables.

 

[rockitman]

Regarding belt tension and speed (I can feel the tension in the crowd...lol) a laser tachometer is going to come in handy for the most accurate judge of platter speed, imo. Monarch plt200 pocket laser tachometer.

The TechDas requires belt tension adjustments too. You cannot arbitrarily set the tension to whatever you like and expect it to calibrate to the proper speed. The calibration is done for 45 rpm and once done, 33 rpm takes care of itself. A little trial and error is involved to get the correct tension.

Since the belt David uses now is non compliant, I suspect once belt tension and speed are set, there is very little else to worry about for a good while. I know nothing about thread drives, ect...but it will be fun to try out if it does impact the sound in a positive way.

I trust David will share his belt tension tricks (if there are any) and that will be it. I to am interested to hear from those who have MS belt tensioning experience. David says the non-compliant belt lasts for years ! I use the PLT200 to set my CA MI speed and verify the AF1's. Indispensable for $250.

 

[microstrip]

(...) it's this level of tension where the art and feel is involved. trial, error, and experience. (...)

+1.

We have many theories about optimum belt tension, but the AS bearing and motor have unique characteristics, completely different from oil bearings. Besides real experience, David is the only valid opinion in this particular matter and he is still doing experiments:

(...) Right now the belt is so loose that it's almost falling off, barely catching and it still sounds full bodied and solid. I only got the finished motors a little over a week ago and I'm still learning more about them.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have been giving this highly-charged and tension-filled (copying Christian's pun) question a lot of thought. After much research and thoughtful analysis I have developed a strategy.

Ron's strategy for perfecting belt tension and motor to platter distance on AS-2000:

1) David sets

2) Ron forgets

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, foolproof.
Of course until the lovely Tinka gives it all a good dusting .

 

[Lagonda]

My first wife killed a Ortofon MC 3000 cleaning, my second destroyed a Benz Gulwing I'm staying single !

 

[NorthStar]

Can you not put an electric fence around your turntable.

 

[Lagonda]

Good idea, or a big lock on my music room !

 

[NorthStar]

Here you go; you can go search for a new wife now.

 

[awsmone]

Here you go; you can go search for a new wife now.

My wife doesn't clean the music room for fear of damaging something

 

[NorthStar]

Women are not the problem, men are. ...And rats chewing speaker cables.

 

[rockitman]

My finalized schematics for my AS2000 support...

 

[Tango]

My finalized schematics for my AS2000 support...

Hello Christian,

Is this the ND23 you were taliking about thats priced around $5,000? What would the table top be made of.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[PeterA]

That's a great drawing. Thanks for posting and sharing. What are the details for those four footers? They appear to be able to move in some way. Perhaps they are rollers.