"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[Lee]

Another thing to consider is that to make a world class speaker, you need infrastructure. You need a great engineering team, special cabinet materials, craftsmen to assemble, world class drivers and capacitors, etc.

All that costs money. There are very few shortcuts and very few speakers that do world class performance for less.

But the silver lining is that the learning trickles down to more affordable models.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Another thing to consider is that to make a world class speaker, you need infrastructure. You need a great engineering team, special cabinet materials, craftsmen to assemble, world class drivers and capacitors, etc.

All that costs money. There are very few shortcuts and very few speakers that do world class performance for less.

But the silver lining is that the learning trickles down to more affordable models.

Didnt you forget something like .... " marketing " .... you should know lee

 

[bonzo75]

Didnt you forget something like .... " marketing " .... you should know lee

marketing = long term loan to JV and RH.

 

[LL21]

Consider your average pricey massively built conventionally dynamic loudspeakers. These are still what most audiophiles listen to and also used widely in the professional world. Most of these have appalling distortion that is hugely worse than even a really bad SET amplifier. You only have to look at distortion measurements in ASR to see how bad loudspeakers are. It’s a joke.

Here’s a famous example. This is the famous JBL M2, a top quality pro loudspeaker that costs around 30 grand once you factor in the special Crown amplifiers that do the crossover digitally and are custom designed for the M2. Here’s the total harmonic distortion at 86 dB at 1 meter. Notice throughout the bass region, distortion is around -45dB. In digital terms, each bit corresponds to 6dB (compact discs recorded at 16 bit have 96 dB maximum S/N ratio). The JBL cannot resolve even 8 bits of information in the bass. Most audiophile speakers are much worse. The only exceptions are Quad electrostatics that have distortion around -70dB, but only at moderate volumes, and Kliipsch La Scalas or Klipschorn that can have -70 dB (around 0.1 THD) at far higher volumes.


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For true hifi, you have to solve this problem. It will require new physics, perhaps new mathematics and clever engineering. We are nowhere near hearing what is on the billions of compact discs that have been around for 40 years. As for high res 24-bit, forget about it. That’s a pipe dream right now. To resolve 24-bits of information, a loudspeaker has to have distortion of around -140dB. That’s not even remotely possible even if you were to spend a billion dollars on a loudspeaker. No one knows how to design such a loudspeaker.

Hmm.. I have over 35+ years in buying high end audio. I have owned a lot of expensive large loudspeakers (e.g., B&W 800 Diamond etc.). Invariably the benefits of size are outweighed by issues of integration and size, weight, difficulty to drive them easily and room interactions.

Fascinating. Makes a lot of sense...by far the most moving mechanical parts, and the one piece of the system with a huge mechanical interface challenge getting the signal from inside a cable out into the real world at audible levels (unlike headphones where it is audible if you put your ear up to it).

Just to learn more...if one were to do the same measurement test with a pair of headphones, do you find that their substantially lower excursion, etc means that they have much less distortion? Curious.

As for your comment about big speaker and rooms...I saw an EXCELLENT video from PS Audio's in-house designer where he speaks to a group of visitors...and really seems to talk about technicals, metallurgy, etc and one of the points he makes is about WHY he is not bothered by large speakers in smaller rooms. He gives the areas of focus for such a set up, and generally was really interesting to listen to his explanation of many things.

At 29:17, a person asks Chris what room size is appropriate for a specific speaker, and Chris goes on to say that he is not as bothered by the notion of speaker size and room size.

 

[bonzo75]

We had previously reports on Caelin moving from Wilson Sasha to Devore O96, and Howie moving from Divin Noblesse to tannoy Westminster to AN-E.

Now Sujay (he doesn’t last much but can be PMed on the forum) moved from Rockport Avior to Devore orangutans. He still has his Burmester set of electronics with Lampi for digital and AMG as TT.

he reported that he is getting a much better soundstage, bass, and tone. Good time to reiterate that after 18 months or so of audition the late Art Dudley ended up buying the Devore orangutan and said that Bonham was the best he heard on these speakers. Am sure Sujay will get a further uptick when he replaces with low watt amps. Those who own Wilson Alexia, Alexandria and XVXes will get similar benefit if they move to Devores. They can easily afford this test without selling off, just buy an used O96 and sell it back in the used market if you do not like it. You won’t lose much if anything.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And ,.... do you have any benefits of it personally ??
Or is it all because you wanna make this world a better place full of devores (iow you wanna help people make the " right " decisions ) ??

We had previously reports on Caelin moving from Wilson Sasha to Devore O96, and Howie moving from Divin Noblesse to tannoy Westminster to AN-E.

Now Sujay (he doesn’t last much but can be PMed on the forum) moved from Rockport Avior to Devore orangutans. He still has his Burmester set of electronics with Lampi for digital and AMG as TT.

he reported that he is getting a much better soundstage, bass, and tone. Good time to reiterate that after 18 months or so of audition the late Art Dudley ended up buying the Devore orangutan and said that Bonham was the best he heard on these speakers. Am sure Sujay will get a further uptick when he replaces with low watt amps. Those who own Wilson Alexia, Alexandria and XVXes will get similar benefit if they move to Devores. They can easily afford this test without selling off, just buy an used O96 and sell it back in the used market if you do not like it. You won’t lose much if anything.

 

[bonzo75]

And ,.... do you have any benefits of it personally ??
Or is it all because you wanna make this world a better place full of devores (iow you wanna help people make the " right " decisions ) ??

No benefits personally. It is to show there are smaller, less expensive speakers that do better than larger, expensive speakers. And just fyi, AN-E and Devore are different speakers

 

[Lee]

We had previously reports on Caelin moving from Wilson Sasha to Devore O96, and Howie moving from Divin Noblesse to tannoy Westminster to AN-E.

Now Sujay (he doesn’t last much but can be PMed on the forum) moved from Rockport Avior to Devore orangutans. He still has his Burmester set of electronics with Lampi for digital and AMG as TT.

he reported that he is getting a much better soundstage, bass, and tone. Good time to reiterate that after 18 months or so of audition the late Art Dudley ended up buying the Devore orangutan and said that Bonham was the best he heard on these speakers. Am sure Sujay will get a further uptick when he replaces with low watt amps. Those who own Wilson Alexia, Alexandria and XVXes will get similar benefit if they move to Devores. They can easily afford this test without selling off, just buy an used O96 and sell it back in the used market if you do not like it. You won’t lose much if anything.

I believe Caelin is getting Alexia Vs for the new Shunyata reference room.

 

[Lee]

The better Devores are excellent…but they are expensive too.

But I don‘t believe they are in the same league as Wilson Alexias or XVXs.

 

[Lee]

Didnt you forget something like .... " marketing " .... you should know lee

Haha! Yes, marketing expense as well.

 

[bonzo75]

I believe Caelin is getting Alexia Vs for the new Shunyata reference room.

Great place for people to go and compare then

 

[bonzo75]

The better Devores are excellent…but they are expensive too.

But I don‘t believe they are in the same league as Wilson Alexias or XVXs.

the O96 are much better. XVX are such pointless toys. Devo-id, unlike Devore, of music

 

[andromedaaudio]

I would nt trade mine for either XVXs or Devores / AN UK

You guys can keep your stuff no matter how hard you market scream .

@ Bonzo if they are such a bargain why dont you buy a pair

 

[Al M.]

The better Devores are excellent…but they are expensive too.

But I don‘t believe they are in the same league as Wilson Alexias or XVXs.

In which ways precisely do you not find them to be in the same league?

(This is not a "catch" question, but one of genuine interest.)

 

[Elliot G.]

Its funny to me how all of these discussions are circular. Everyone pretends to know the answerbut they always talk around ths subject without ever getting to the end.
What do I mean? Its not about the speakers only. It never is , yet this is what people want to discuss.
Unless one has heard any of these products set up correctly in a proper room then it isnt the product but the circumstances surrounding them that failed.
Im sorry bit I thinkt he guy from PS is wrong, very wrong when it comes to large speakers.
There is no way a Divin Majestic, Genesis, Magico, Wilson, Focal, MBL, Stenheim etc top of the line large scale speakers work properly in a small room. No one can convince me of this. Can you get good sound? maybe, can you get great sound No!
I have played with many of these giants in my lifetime and they are extremely difficult and require a lot of time and the best gear around them to get them to the point where they are really up to their capabilities. Is it easier to get smaller speakers to work in a variety of spaces ABSOLUTELY.
This is fact and really a good thing IMO. Most people do not have a real super duper state of the art listening space. These type of products are built for that environment however people who can afford them WANT them and do whatever they want because they can. People/Buyers want what they want whether they can use it properly, get the max performance out of them, well thats another question.
Almost every high end company makes one of these speakers today, so that almost every dealer can sell you something like that however that does not mean you get the result one would expect.
Is this a product issue?
maybe sometimes
To me its using the wrong tool for the job like buying a Porsche GT3RS to tow your boat.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You dont need the latest greatest amps and speakers , what you need is a dedicated audiophile who knows where he is heading and a good room

 

[Lee]

In which ways precisely do you not find them to be in the same league?

(This is not a "catch" question, but one of genuine interest.)

Bass performance, resolution, and phase coherency.

 

[Tiltedfault]

Its funny to me how all of these discussions are circular. Everyone pretends to know the answerbut they always talk around ths subject without ever getting to the end.
What do I mean? Its not about the speakers only. It never is , yet this is what people want to discuss.
Unless one has heard any of these products set up correctly in a proper room then it isnt the product but the circumstances surrounding them that failed.
Im sorry bit I thinkt he guy from PS is wrong, very wrong when it comes to large speakers.
There is no way a Divin Majestic, Genesis, Magico, Wilson, Focal, MBL, Stenheim etc top of the line large scale speakers work properly in a small room. No one can convince me of this. Can you get good sound? maybe, can you get great sound No!
I have played with many of these giants in my lifetime and they are extremely difficult and require a lot of time and the best gear around them to get them to the point where they are really up to their capabilities. Is it easier to get smaller speakers to work in a variety of spaces ABSOLUTELY.
This is fact and really a good thing IMO. Most people do not have a real super duper state of the art listening space. These type of products are built for that environment however people who can afford them WANT them and do whatever they want because they can. People/Buyers want what they want whether they can use it properly, get the max performance out of them, well thats another question.
Almost every high end company makes one of these speakers today, so that almost every dealer can sell you something like that however that does not mean you get the result one would expect.
Is this a product issue?
maybe sometimes
To me its using the wrong tool for the job like buying a Porsche GT3RS to tow your boat.

Yes, these discussions seem circular because people generally don’t change their minds in the course of them. It’s a battle to the death, or withdrawal at worst, but rarely a concession of defeat.

You mention that people want what they want but whether they use them properly is another question. What, in your experience, is the percentage of people who use them properly among your client base, or is this something you can answer?

Matt

 

[Lee]

the O96 are much better. XVX are such pointless toys. Devo-id, unlike Devore, of music

You should take a trip to Paragon in Ann Arbor and here the XVXs with the Burmester amps. They sound very natural and lifelike imho.

 

[Lee]

Yes, these discussions seem circular because people generally don’t change their minds in the course of them. It’s a battle to the death, or withdrawal at worst, but rarely a concession of defeat.

You mention that people want what they want but whether they use them properly is another question. What, in your experience, is the percentage of people who use them properly among your client base, or is this something you can answer?

Matt

I think Elliott is correct in that they need a very precise setup and a decent if not perfect room to show what they are capable of.

My Alexia Vs are amazing speakers but I would take the Devores with good setup versus Wilsons with bad setup. Good setup is everything.