"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[Willgolf]

I have had two speaker experts come to my house in the last two months to help place the speakers in what they thought was the best position. This is after the speaker builder originally set them up. Both experts toed my speakers drastically (IMO). I was not happy so I called the speaker designed and he said to move them back the way they were. His speakers were designed to not need a toe-in. I can tell you in my case I am much happier with no toe-in and relatively close to the rear wall.

 

[bonzo75]

I like my house and hope to retire there (regardless of the fact that my room is somewhat limited in size). I hope I do not have to move.

Your room is 24 feet long and reasonably wide, how is that limited in size? It can fit a SET horn after retirement so yes, you would not have to move

 

[Gregadd]

I have had two speaker experts come to my house in the last two months to help place the speakers in what they thought was the best position. This is after the speaker builder originally set them up. Both experts toed my speakers drastically (IMO). I was not happy so I called the speaker designed and he said to move them back the way they were. His speakers were designed to not need a toe-in. I can tell you in my case I am much happier with no toe-in and relatively close to the rear wall.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

 

[bonzo75]

I have had two speaker experts come to my house in the last two months to help place the speakers in what they thought was the best position.

Do you remember what tracks these “experts”used for auditioning to confirm placement was optimal, and I assume it was a combination of measurements and listening?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have had two speaker experts come to my house in the last two months to help place the speakers in what they thought was the best position. This is after the speaker builder originally set them up. Both experts toed my speakers drastically (IMO). I was not happy so I called the speaker designed and he said to move them back the way they were. His speakers were designed to not need a toe-in. I can tell you in my case I am much happier with no toe-in and relatively close to the rear wall.

So you had 3 experts already in total
You can also experiment yourself , moving speakers around doesn t cost anything and makes a big difference
In my expirience speaker toe-in is determined by the freq response of a LS , which is different for every LS , so there is no good or bad here , its determined per LS model differently
Straightfiring tweeters / no toe- in will give a more rolled of response and tweeters aimed at your ear the opposite .
Close to walls / corners can improve your bass balance ( giving more bass energy ) but there are no set rules as speaker balances differ from one model to the other

 

[Al M.]

Your room is 24 feet long and reasonably wide, how is that limited in size? It can fit a SET horn after retirement so yes, you would not have to move

Yes, the length is great, width less so. Once you have heard competent reproduction of large orchestra in a wide room, as I am sure you have as well, you realize that this is at a scale that is unachievable in a mid-sized room like mine.

My system does scale well from recording to recording, and large orchestral is at a scale much larger than intimate chamber music (which sounds indeed wonderfully intimate). The scale of large orchestral music is especially enjoyable with lights out, when your mind is freed from your eyes playing tricks on you as they see that walls and the speakers in their position. Still, the scale is far from what is achievable in a large room (and with larger speakers than mine).

If my room was just 2 feet wider I would also not have to deal with as many sidewall reflections as I did; fortunately I was able to tame the problem, but I am sure the sound would still be better in a wider room. Of course, this is less a problem with the dispersive patterns of horns, but at this point I am not convinced that I want to go that route, especially as the speakers now, with the latest changes, perform so extraordinarily well to a degree that I had not expected (which I still have to report on in my system thread).

 

[Gregadd]

I am not a measurement guy. It seems though measurements a re most effective in the case of linear distortions. I suggest having the in room response professionally measured. Then you can correlate that with what you are hearing.
To thine own ears be true.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I am not a measurement guy

I am unfortunately may be thats why the obsession with measuring
I install /align gearboxes costing over 500 K worldwide ( among a lot of other technical things .)
Getting it wrong is usually not appreciated .
Usually no spares on site and the cost of downtime can go up to 300 K a day .
Speakers is easy

 

[PYP]

Yes, the length is great, width less so. Once you have heard competent reproduction of large orchestra in a wide room, as I am sure you have as well, you realize that this is at a scale that is unachievable in a mid-sized room like mine.

Is it the standard to determine the size of the room by total square feet/meters or cubic feet/meters (since the ceiling height must matter too)?

What is considered to be mid-sized?

And is there a way to know what size speaker is optimal, for a given kind of speaker (horn/dynamic/etc.), for that room?

 

[Willgolf]

Do you remember what tracks these “experts”used for auditioning to confirm placement was optimal, and I assume it was a combination of measurements and listening?

Both had specific artists they used and I don't remember the exact tracks but one was with Diane Krall and the other was Bella Bleck. Both were bass-heavy tracks. Neither used precise measurements. I am not an expert. I go by what I enjoy the most when listening.
Another example is I just installed a QSA Silver Jitter plug at the end of an Inakustic 3500P Power conditioner. My first impressions were extremely positive. Everything was much clearer, and precise and the vocals were like you were there at a concert. No measurements, just what my ear heard.

 

[LL21]

Both had specific artists they used and I don't remember the exact tracks but one was with Diane Krall and the other was Bella Bleck. Both were bass-heavy tracks. Neither used precise measurements. I am not an expert. I go by what I enjoy the most when listening.
Another example is I just installed a QSA Silver Jitter plug at the end of an Inakustic 3500P Power conditioner. My first impressions were extremely positive. Everything was much clearer, and precise and the vocals were like you were there at a concert. No measurements, just what my ear heard.

I have heard good things about QSA...but Landeri of course given the thread here...but also the Silver Jitter. Is this the one for LAN connections? I am most curious about your experience there. Is it a plug in and instantly hear differences? Something that takes a few days to settle in?

 

[Willgolf]

@LL21
I purchased the QSA Silver Jitter plug used so it was already broken in. As a result, I heard the improvements within one song. It is not the QSA LAN; it is strictly a plug that goes into an outlet. I am clueless about how it works and many will disparage this as BS but my ears for me prove all I need to know.

 

[LL21]

@LL21
I purchased the QSA Silver Jitter plug used so it was already broken in. As a result, I heard the improvements within one song. It is not the QSA LAN; it is strictly a plug that goes into an outlet. I am clueless about how it works and many will disparage this as BS but my ears for me prove all I need to know.

Thanks! I have also heard good things about those as well. Expect at some point we may be trialing some.

 

[LL21]

@LL21
I purchased the QSA Silver Jitter plug used so it was already broken in. As a result, I heard the improvements within one song. It is not the QSA LAN; it is strictly a plug that goes into an outlet. I am clueless about how it works and many will disparage this as BS but my ears for me prove all I need to know.

Hi Willgolf,

Trialing a QSA LAN Jitter shortly...3 versions - Red-Black, Silver and their Crystal - Org Gold...look forward to learning more about the sound.

 

[ScottK]

So one could get a really great speaker for $50K and a couple of really good, super fast, subwoofers for $75K. As Jim Smith is fond of saying "subwoofers are about space not bass".

I tried this with my Wilson Alexia. Added two high quality subs and thought it helped. When I upgraded to the Alexx V I removed the subs. The quality of the bass from Alexx far exceeded my prior setup.

 

[Elliot G.]

We don't talk about them collectively as often as we should I think because not many people in the USA have heard any of them, but I think the Goebel Divin Majestic sounds amazing. The Divin line is relatively high sensitivity, relatively few drivers (3-ways) and relatively simple crossovers.

The larger the model, the higher the sensitivity:

Majestic 98dB

Noblesse 95dB

Marquis 92dB

(I have written many times that I think the Wilson XVX sounds amazing. I would love to be able to compare directly in the same room and the same system the XVX to the Majestic. This to me would be a very interesting comparison in the over $200,000 range because each speaker represents a genuinely different philosophy to dynamic driver sound reproduction. Purely based on simpler design and higher sensitivity, if I had to guess, I bet I would probably prefer the Majestic.)

There are a pair on permanent display is Oliver's new building so if you are going to Munich or MOC anytime I can happily make an apointment for you to get blown away/ They sound amazing there.

 

[Elliot G.]

Sure, at shows or at dealers you can't expect much. Proper set-up can take many hours. That also holds for the main speakers themselves. I have found that I shuffled my speakers around after new gear purchases, acoustic changes or power changes to adjust for the overall changes in sound. As for subs, it took me a while until I really understood and was able to dial in the phase of my JL Audios. Doing that, based on many recordings of very different music (orchestral, chamber, rock, jazz, electronica, you name it), takes a good amount of time as well. And if you only have a 0/180 phase option rather than the possibility of continuous adjustment, as is the case with many subwoofers, then you very well may have a problem, in my opinion. I would have had one.

All in all, I have spent countless hours on my speaker set-up, both main speakers and subs. And no, you can't delegate all that hard work to a paid set-up expert who visits for a day or two either. Sure, that person might be of big help, but the final and tedious fine-tuning, according to your own personal tastes and perceptions which only you know and nobody else, will be in your own hands.

Just plonking down a speaker system in your room and hoping for a miracle doesn't cut it. No matter how much money you throw at it.

I totally agree and have said many times shows are for a taste and a small taste of what the gear can do but more for a look at what is out there.
The real secret sauce here is getting a room that will work with a speaker. I see so many people who can afford a large speaker buy them but then put them in a seriously challenged space. That space is too small, or the wrong dimensions, or there are other factors like family and furniture and easthetics that make the speakers operation virtually impossible, Thsi si done and the owner spends his time searching for a fix of a problem that he created for himself.
AL large and expensive speakers are not created equally. There are many companies that make a "reference level" speaker becasue it sia marketing tool and they may have some clients who stick with the brand and buy them
These are not usually great sounding items, they are however some street cred for the brand.
I wont name names but if we are serious and honest they are easily spotted.

The issue with producing excellent and "better level " sound quality is difficult to do anywhere let alone in a store. Stores have limited space and are moving stuff all around constantly. I know in my showroom I hate to take my system apart for anything. It takes al ot of time to get it right and taking it apart is like almost starting from scratch.
So a showroom with speakers they drag in or roll in or with many speakers in the room is seriously compromised.
Audio takes a lot of perspiration and effort along with some cash.
THe really good products out there can all produce some seriously good sound, perfect no, some better than others yes, but with the propper room , gear and lots of work one can get a great result.
There is a place for much of the gear and some speaker companies that made reallyu good speakers at reasonable price and size will be in thier sweet spot however playing in the other leagues may leave them on the outside.
I selll big, bigger and huge speakers.
They are not interchangeable
They all wont work the same in a room
The bigger speakers were DESIGNED for larger spaces -- what a surprise :LOL

 

[godofwealth]

If you believe this, then my only conclusion is that you are inexperienced at audio.

Hmm.. I have over 35+ years in buying high end audio. I have owned a lot of expensive large loudspeakers (e.g., B&W 800 Diamond etc.). Invariably the benefits of size are outweighed by issues of integration and size, weight, difficulty to drive them easily and room interactions.

 

[godofwealth]

I agree with this statement -- Loudspeakers are the most flawed component (Putting streaming aside). I am interested in your statment about 8 bit resolution. Would you be willing to share your math on this?

Consider your average pricey massively built conventionally dynamic loudspeakers. These are still what most audiophiles listen to and also used widely in the professional world. Most of these have appalling distortion that is hugely worse than even a really bad SET amplifier. You only have to look at distortion measurements in ASR to see how bad loudspeakers are. It’s a joke.

Here’s a famous example. This is the famous JBL M2, a top quality pro loudspeaker that costs around 30 grand once you factor in the special Crown amplifiers that do the crossover digitally and are custom designed for the M2. Here’s the total harmonic distortion at 86 dB at 1 meter. Notice throughout the bass region, distortion is around -45dB. In digital terms, each bit corresponds to 6dB (compact discs recorded at 16 bit have 96 dB maximum S/N ratio). The JBL cannot resolve even 8 bits of information in the bass. Most audiophile speakers are much worse. The only exceptions are Quad electrostatics that have distortion around -70dB, but only at moderate volumes, and Kliipsch La Scalas or Klipschorn that can have -70 dB (around 0.1 THD) at far higher volumes.



For true hifi, you have to solve this problem. It will require new physics, perhaps new mathematics and clever engineering. We are nowhere near hearing what is on the billions of compact discs that have been around for 40 years. As for high res 24-bit, forget about it. That’s a pipe dream right now. To resolve 24-bits of information, a loudspeaker has to have distortion of around -140dB. That’s not even remotely possible even if you were to spend a billion dollars on a loudspeaker. No one knows how to design such a loudspeaker.

 

[Lee]

Hmm.. I have over 35+ years in buying high end audio. I have owned a lot of expensive large loudspeakers (e.g., B&W 800 Diamond etc.). Invariably the benefits of size are outweighed by issues of integration and size, weight, difficulty to drive them easily and room interactions.

I have 40+ years buying high end audio and every time I moved up to more expensive speakers and electronics, the benefits were clear (provided some good setup of course). Now this is not 100% the case as there are some bad but pricey speakers.