In praise of idlers

[spiritofmusic]

So, what IS the magic of idlers? I think it must be inertia related. Not the inertia of a heavy platter got up to speed by a belt and mass/low friction bearing keeping the platter gently ticking along. It must be something to do w the moment of force applied, and that a continuous motive push urges the platter on. The result in both cases is ostensibly the same: 33.33rpm with as minimal drift as possible. But the keeping speed going versus allowing the speed to maintain, has dramatically different outcomes on the sound we hear.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So, what IS the magic of idlers? I think it must be inertia related. Not the inertia of a heavy platter got up to speed by a belt and mass/low friction bearing keeping the platter gently ticking along. It must be something to do w the moment of force applied, and that a continuous motive push urges the platter on. The result in both cases is ostensibly the same: 33.33rpm with as minimal drift as possible. But the keeping speed going versus allowing the speed to maintain, has dramatically different outcomes on the sound we hear.

i think natural selection has refined our internal gyroscopes to sense delicate gradations of movement and sound, and 'know' what is real and less than real. while it's not everything, it is a thing. and the leverage of a fixed wheel on the inner surface of the platter get's a part of the sound more real than other approaches (at particular overall general price points). an aspect of 'suspension of disbelief' occurs which seems to be more significant (to idler celebrants) than other aspects that might be slightly compromised to some degree in the equation of execution.

why do we like this steady push sonic attribute? it brings pleasure.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ok Mike, let's throw the Q in reverse. You really liked yr Dobbins Garrard 301, but had sufficient low level dissatisfaction w it in comparison to yr NVS, hence you passing the 301 on. Did you also have the Dobbins SP10 or Beat as well?

What was the NVS doing better than these, and what is the Saskia now excelling at, and is the Saskia like an ultimate evolution of what you heard in the Dobbins, or a whole new class of good, that might after rigorous A/B supplant the NVS?

 

[bonzo75]

Ok Mike, let's throw the Q in reverse. You really liked yr Dobbins Garrard 301, but had sufficient low level dissatisfaction w it in comparison to yr NVS, hence you passing the 301 on. Did you also have the Dobbins SP10 or Beat as well?

What was the NVS doing better than these, and what is the Saskia now excelling at, and is the Saskia like an ultimate evolution of what you heard in the Dobbins, or a whole new class of good, that might after rigorous A/B supplant the NVS?

I really think this generalizing idlers is silly. There is a large difference between Garrard, 124, lenco, and EMT 927, irrespective of tastes. If one thinks that all 4 could be liked or disliked compared to belts or DDs, he is being unnecessarily religious as opposed to actually listening

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, in my time, I've heard poorly- and well-executed: Garrard 301 and 401, Lenco L75, my Salvation, TT Weights.

You've heard various NOS Garrard, 124, Lenco, EMT, Commonwealth. Plus new Schroeder, Torqueo, Blackstone.

You're really saying you hear no family/generic sound? I don't mean that these sound the same just as an AS and Kronos don't sound the same.

I mean in type of presentation: hugely rhythmic, dense and purposeful. Yes, belt and DD can do these too, but all the idlers I've heard have these attributes front and centre.

It's surely no coincidence that so many triodes/horns guys run idlers.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Even Tang who is running TOTL AS, Kronos, AF, says his EMT is a tone meister and runs his belt tts ragged on rhythmic urgency. Only caveat as you have pointed out is the micro detail stuff, meaning even cost no object 927 better suited to driving music than delicate classical. This about sums up idlers across the spectrum.

The exciting news from Mike is he may have an idler which maintains the proud tradition of being hugely toneful and propulsive, but excels in belt territory ie low level info, shimmer, minimal noise.

 

[jespera]

I'm thinking of adding an idler to my system. Which models do you prefer?

The td 124, the garrards 301-401, and the lencos are all class acts. Under the right conditions (alignment, oiling, plinth, auxilaries) they can all perform at the highest level.
Choosing which one is to some extent a question of personal taste.

The td 124 is the smoothest sounding, the garrard the most powerful and has the strongest bass, and the lenco has the best beat.

For the budget conscious id recommend a lenco L70 with a denon dl 103 in the stock arm. A very musical package.

Jesper

 

[jeff1225]

The td 124, the garrards 301-401, and the lencos are all class acts. Under the right conditions (alignment, oiling, plinth, auxilaries) they can all perform at the highest level.
Choosing which one is to some extent a question of personal taste.

The td 124 is the smoothest sounding, the garrard the most powerful and has the strongest bass, and the lenco has the best beat.

For the budget conscious id recommend a lenco L70 with a denon dl 103 in the stock arm. A very musical package.

Jesper

I'm also very interested in the PTP Audio table, I really like the modern looks. What are your thoughts on the PTP?

 

[bonzo75]

I'm also very interested in the PTP Audio table, I really like the modern looks. What are your thoughts on the PTP?

The schopper and STST Motus II (Suspended DD) is better than the PTP.

Anamighty sound has the STST and PTP next to each other and can compare with Schroeder CB and Schick arm. Not even close.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffrey, my rim drive Salvation is a direct evolution of the Lenco L75. I was very close to considering moving to the PTP, but decided to maxx out my tt instead.

I really think, from all I've read, and my comms w Peter, you really cannot go wrong w the PTP. It may well be a tad boppier than the 301/401and faster than the 124. He recommends the twin-plinth option, plus various upgrades to stock Lencos incl the famed Peters Top Plate and bearing. He sells a creditable arm fitted as well, all in all under €5k. Well sorted idlers at this level absolutely slay the opposition, and I wouldn't be suprised if it stays competitive w yr Ascona, and maybe excels on some genres.

Miles electric period and Coltrane late 60s free period, plus 70s fusion is undeniable on idler.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, in my time, I've heard poorly- and well-executed: Garrard 301 and 401, Lenco L75, my Salvation, TT Weights.

You've heard various NOS Garrard, 124, Lenco, EMT, Commonwealth. Plus new Schroeder, Torqueo, Blackstone.

You're really saying you hear no family/generic sound? I don't mean that these sound the same just as an AS and Kronos don't sound the same.

I mean in type of presentation: hugely rhythmic, dense and purposeful. Yes, belt and DD can do these too, but all the idlers I've heard have these attributes front and centre.

It's surely no coincidence that so many triodes/horns guys run idlers.

No I don't get the same generic sound. And I don't believe those who say they do I just think they are preaching religion. Just take it on a case by case basis especially at the price levels being discussed here. Sure, at the bang for the buck level, get a Schopper. But then all sorts of DDs and belts come into play.

 

[bonzo75]

Jeffrey, my rim drive Salvation is a direct evolution of the Lenco L75. I was very close to considering moving to the PTP, but decided to maxx out my tt instead.

I really think, from all I've read, and my comms w Peter, you really cannot go wrong w the PTP. It may well be a tad boppier than the 301/401and faster than the 124. He recommends the twin-plinth option, plus various upgrades to stock Lencos incl the famed Peters Back Plate. He sells a creditable arm fitted as well, all in all under €5k. Well sorted idlers at this level absolutely slay the opposition, and I wouldn't be suprised if it stays competitive w yr Ascona, and maybe excels on some genres.

Miles electric period and Coltrane late 60s free period, plus 70s fusion is undeniable on idler.

You have not heard the PTP nor the schopper.

 

[spiritofmusic]

True. Just surmising from Jesper's summary. Jeffrey may have to take a punt. Jesper has heard and owned many and has strong opinions on how they compare. And Ked too. Jeffrey may have to decide on these views.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The td 124, the garrards 301-401, and the lencos are all class acts. Under the right conditions (alignment, oiling, plinth, auxilaries) they can all perform at the highest level.
Choosing which one is to some extent a question of personal taste.

The td 124 is the smoothest sounding, the garrard the most powerful and has the strongest bass, and the lenco has the best beat.

For the budget conscious id recommend a lenco L70 with a denon dl 103 in the stock arm. A very musical package.

Jesper

Jesper - your thoughts on what derives the best plinth for say a Garrard?

 

[spiritofmusic]

No I don't get the same generic sound. And I don't believe those who say they do I just think they are preaching religion. Just take it on a case by case basis especially at the price levels being discussed here. Sure, at the bang for the buck level, get a Schopper. But then all sorts of DDs and belts come into play.

Ah, well I guess we idler guys will hope we've all chosen the one true religion.

Audiophiles preaching, gosh, I've never heard that before.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I REALLY hope this subject keeps it's momentum. I changed my turntable from an after market belt drive system to a Teres Verus rim drive ( albeit on a 50 lb. platter), and the difference was phenomenal! It gave my Lyra Atlas the drive and heft to the music I'm not sure I could have achieved any other way. If your an vinyl junkie, you should investigate. View attachment 56775

Harry, two lots of passive isolation w Mooks. You're covering yr bases there.

 

[jeff1225]

I have only heard Garrard 301 (Shindo) and 401 and I enjoyed the presentation of both turntables thoroughly. I'm interested in the PTP as I like the cleanliness of the design, but the "best"sound is of course important as well.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffrey, Ked and Jesper really are the people here to help you compare and contrast 124, L75 and 301/401. Jesper and I are of the same mind re the hypnotic fatal attraction of idlers, Ked can provide some counterpoint re the POV that idlers are not all uniquely addictive.

Re clean/streamlined design on idlers, PTP is a tough act to follow.

 

[bonzo75]

I have only heard Garrard 301 (Shindo) and 401 and I enjoyed the presentation of both turntables thoroughly. I'm interested in the PTP as I like the cleanliness of the design, but the "best"sound is of course important as well.

This guy had the Shindo 301, he replaced it with teh UK Audiograil 301 in BobC plinth which he said was close, especially for the monetary trade off. The Schopper was way more preferred to his Audiograil.

http://zero-distortion.org/schopper-thorens-124/

This was later followed up with a visit to Hanze Hifi where we compared to Schoppers to the 401. One was better, one wasn't.
http://zero-distortion.org/more-on-restored-thorens-124/

The schoppered 124s have much more linearity, detail, nuance, and lack of the bump sound as compared to the Garrards. I also find the 301 lacking big time in decay, the 401 is better in that regard. The Schoppered 124s also give nice bass and slam compared to the Garrards.

You can see here another quote from https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23054&start=30
“Don’t have a Lenco but do have a Loricrafted 401 and a Schoppered Thorens in other words 2 fully restored turntables. The Thorens 124 with its new bearing and platters has an amazing bass and midrange response and to my ears is superior in most respects to the Garrard…but a lot of money went into the restoration!!
Prior to the restoration, the Garrard had the edge over the Thorens in a vanilla sort of way”

Anamighty has multiple PTPs to compare
http://zero-distortion.org/analog-shoot-anamighty-sound/

 

[jespera]

I have only heard Garrard 301 (Shindo) and 401 and I enjoyed the presentation of both turntables thoroughly. I'm interested in the PTP as I like the cleanliness of the design, but the "best"sound is of course important as well.

I enjoy my ptp. It has a lower noise floor than any other lenco ive owned. It seems to be quite sensitive to choice of mat. Now I use cork with suede on top.

The only thing that annoy me a bit is that the idler wheel is permanently engaged but the manufacturer says i shouldnt worry about it.

I have trouble deciding whether its the best or second best table i own. The contender is the garrard 301 in solid cherry wood plinth — a la shindo. ;-)

I tend to prefer the ptp for rock and pop and the 301 for jazz.

Jesper