In praise of idlers
- Thread starter jespera
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I am curious that you find such a match between the 103 and the L70 arm. I have read that it's tricky if not possible to get proper geometry for the Denon's on that arm.
Marc try to listen to the pink triangle anniversary with an SME V tonearm (for some reason the two are known to be a good combination, and go used together around 3500). That will easily beat the PTP. Problem is you don't get the pink triangle in a good condition always. Ask Mik about the turntable.
Similarly, Sony 8000 when well done is excellent as well. You have heard it at UK Paul, I also heard it with SME V and one of the cheaper phasemation carts playing through a Luxman integrated into the tannoy 15 inch gold. For rock and blues it was indeed one of the best systems I have heard, I haven't enjoyed LZ so match after leaving Mike's. And this whole system cost him 16k total.
Similarly, Sony 8000 when well done is excellent as well. You have heard it at UK Paul, I also heard it with SME V and one of the cheaper phasemation carts playing through a Luxman integrated into the tannoy 15 inch gold. For rock and blues it was indeed one of the best systems I have heard, I haven't enjoyed LZ so match after leaving Mike's. And this whole system cost him 16k total.
I never did. I just think it is too case by case specific. I love Mike's system, though I was not able to isolate the NVS and don't have Marc and Brad's strength to hear through systems and identify what each component is doing on its own.
I have heard a modded kodo beat only once and liked it, but don't know enough. The Sony 8000 is a lower priced solution. At OMA I preferred his lenco system to his SP10 mk3 system, but again, they were different systems. That's the only sp10 mk3 I have heard.
Also there are the Denon tables, of which a couple are supposed to be great, and I have never heard. I did not like the Monaco in compares, though it also resides in my favorite system along with Mike's, Pietro's yamamura (though the source has less influence there)
But I don't see any similarity in the DDs I did hear. Analog is too complex to make such broad generalizations. Even those who prefer belts to DDs are usually talking high quality belts. In belts there are many more choices, more modern ones and all belt aficionados will agree there are many belts they think sound sh*t.
Though I don't get why better speed correction going to the nth degree should result in better sound
Extremely accurate speed would matter more on a table like the Nakamichi that self centers this disc. Otherwise all of our not completely centered LP playing naturally varies the speed a little for us... (and pitch of some things)
Although something more simple on AC motors is to power them via a two channel amp for better speed in general. It’s the thing to do now, but I’m not sure the commercial world has caught on. It does nothing in the way of correction.
IME the biggest problem from tables that try to correct speed is the noise they inject back into the AC, or maybe even signal. That is enough to make a stereo sound bad.
Although something more simple on AC motors is to power them via a two channel amp for better speed in general. It’s the thing to do now, but I’m not sure the commercial world has caught on. It does nothing in the way of correction.
IME the biggest problem from tables that try to correct speed is the noise they inject back into the AC, or maybe even signal. That is enough to make a stereo sound bad.
108cy does say he prefers AC to DC, but that is with belts. he did advise that for DD it's different.
I do find in belts I ended up preferring AC, and found the DC ones like bad digital. Though I am by no means knowledgeable about motors I bounced my preferences off him and this was the pattern that emerged
I do find in belts I ended up preferring AC, and found the DC ones like bad digital. Though I am by no means knowledgeable about motors I bounced my preferences off him and this was the pattern that emerged
You may be right, it's a definite design feature and not just a whim.
It may add one additional layer of vibn control. Currently I'm using a periphery ring and record weight to help mate lps to the pods more directly. But rim drive is still the predominant factor re sound produced. However maybe Vic's unusual design flourishes successfully addresses certain weaknesses inherent in idlers.
Did you have particular models in mind? There are lots of different feedback/correction techniques and they are not all equal. Putting noise back on the line is not uncommon with many electronics. I know Shunyata pays particular attention to this in their power distributors. Just asking for clarity, are you saying this factor is a rational for choosing a 'table's drive mechanism?
Bonzo and I agree that implementation varies across many direct drive tables. It's a tough argument to lump all DDs into one category then place judgement on that category. Very very few DD manufacturers - or TT makers of any sort - will publish numbers about the accuracy of their tables much less details of their drive mechanisms. Many different factors play a role in a 'tables character or sound, and when it comes to speed accuracy, unless there is published data, some manufacturers will deflect to those factors rather than discuss accuracy in detail.
Once you hear the difference, you may appreciate stable high accuracy. Once you hear a 'table with stable high accuracy you can appreciate stable extreme accuracy even more. Both are well beyond the bounds of using audible pitch stability or wow & flutter as a gauge, the latter now, imo, being a legacy or antique measurement. If you think our ears are highly sensitive and that time coherence in a speaker makes a positive difference, you may appreciate stable time accuracy in a turntable.
To slightly modify the last two sentences of my Monaco 2.0 coverage: "There is an argument that hyper accuracy doesn’t matter because vinyl records are too imperfect for it to make a difference. With
Dave, this argument could be applied to ribbons spkrs too. Only one or two choices back in the day, and I don't believe you were a fan of them then or now. Today, new only Alsyvox. Ditto new idlers today, only Saskia and Blackstone. But a deep passion and appreciative audience for modded and modernised Apogees via Henk, Jon and True Sound. And a deep passion for idlers brought up to date by Dobbins, Anasound, Artisan Fidelity, OMA, PTP, Torqueo etc.
I don't think it's so easy to just dismiss them. Just as ribbons won't go away.
Marc, this argument can also apply to Beethoven, Bach, etc. If someone likes old composers, they have to acknowledge vintage idlers are great. Ditto goes for Pele, Martina Navratilova, etc.
In short, let's be on point
Well whether or not they have a LPS or SMPS, both have had destructive noise to share. I won't go into a lot of details but the 2 prong plug approach sure as hell doesn't help when you've got a motor contained into a metal body. Redoing it so the arm is isolated and uses the ground wire to the preamp, and the turntable grounded to earth but not connected to the tonearm is a start. But still, for whatever reason, I've found it's best to power condition DD TTs. Without it then an AC synchronous motor might be best (there are other options, too, but most are not particularly common).
Also you guys might find this thread interesting. (you can pretty much not read anything and just scroll to photos to see) Despite all the tech for speed stability it's fascinating how not stable TT's truly are for the most part. It really helps one understand how measuring RPM is sorta a useless metric, which might explain why a fair bit of TT's with some sorta speed controller screw up the sound when only reading RPM at 1 point. The TD124 is pretty damn good.
Dave will understand my argument even if you don't/won't/can't.
Really can't help you if you want to be obtuse just for the sake of it.
There was/is? Terry's 501 too. I'm not dismissing idlers Marc just stating facts. I also agree that when done well idlers have their unique flavor just that there haven't been that many.
Not dismissing ribbons either Apogee had several really good speakers, I loved my Divas but in my mind the credit goes to their creator for making the concept work not the tech.
david
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