In praise of idlers

[bazelio]

Marc, from what I've noticed in your writings over time, I believe you prefer some bloom especially in the mid-bass region. I wonder if you realize and/or agree with this. It's not surprising to me then, that you'd prefer a 301 over something like an SME 20. The system they were compared in may have benefitted from this, or it may simply be what you like. Either way, I do think "speaks to me" is impossible to decode, and given your extensive experience in side by side compares, we could benefit from more specificity in your descriptions herein.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Quite compelling, like the Linn. Indeed I always regretted not going LP12 on my first setup in 1997 when I went Roksan Xerxes X instead.

I very nearly went down the low torque route again in 2011 w the (now sadly discontinued) Palmer 2.5 (I believe descended from the NA). It sounded v special thru Harbeths.

But high torque speaks more to me, and hearing the Salvation the same day as the Palmer was instructive.

 

[bonzo75]

I do think "speaks to me" is impossible to decode.

I agree, he is impossible to decode

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc, from what I've noticed in your writings over time, I believe you prefer some bloom especially in the mid-bass region. I wonder if you realize and/or agree with this. It's not surprising to me then, that you'd prefer a 301 over something like an SME 20. The system they were compared in may have benefitted from this, or it may simply be what you like. Either way, I do think "speaks to me" is impossible to decode, and given your extensive experience in side by side compares, we could benefit from more specificity in your descriptions herein.

Bazelio, hey, I'm no comparo expert here. I made a decision to buy my Zus within 20mins of hearing them, consigning my previous plan of getting ML Prodigies to the bin Lol.

I heard Nat triodes, and spent the next 2 years agonising about whether to buy them or not Lol x1000.

Unlike Ked, I'll kinda fall for gear or dismiss it out of hand. Very few times have I revisited anything and done a 180. I guess I'm as stubborn as him, but in different ways.

And I'll admit I don't do controlled ABs. I would rather die than spend a whole day moving an arm/cart/phono cbl/phono from one tt to another, back and forth, needledrop after needledrop, to come to a rigorous conclusion. Fine for others, just not me.

But on the few times I've heard idlers v belt, these swaps were made, and I maybe got more accurate datapoints.

"Speak to me" is just my phrase for when a component or combination touches my soul.

I love tube amps. But I struggle w the coldness I hear in OTLs and the wooliness I hear in BATs. For me, Nat speaks to me because it is rich and dense, and sufficiently fast.

Zu absolutely talks to a minority, but for me mids density is the thing I hear most in live unamplified, and very few box spkrs and precious few horns really nail this for me. Again, compromise on microdynamics etc I can live with.

Idlers - a bit like my Zu, Nat bias. I'm "feeling" the music off lps. Less cerebral/observational, more experiential. Idlers fill the room, music chugs along relentlessly and then when needed bursts into dynamic swings. Sure, some low level info may suffer. But the big message of the tune gets thru unimpeded. Feel, rather than just hear. Like live music.

Now, yes this could be euphonic colouration, as the LP12 was accused of. But my idler/rim has so many design flourishes that make it way more neutral and open than the Linn, my old Michell Orbe, yet drives the music home better even than the Linn is famed for.

And it's been a platform for me to mod many times to get serious belt drive type attributes of delicacy and air in concert w the undeniable positives of idler presentation.

 

[bazelio]

Reasonable!

 

[spiritofmusic]

I agree, he is impossible to decode

Dan Brown has nothing on me.

 

[Stacore]

A little addendum to what Micro said from an interesting site I have recently discovered. The author examined, among various other interesting things, the noise generated in a TT bearing. His conclusion is somewhat surprising /in his particular setup/:

"Energy generated during playback absolutely dominates the picture here. Even the motor noise looks not very intrusive in comparison "

http://korfaudio.com/blog44

Cheers,

Stylus drag was studied in the 60's and quantified with measurements for a belt drive - see "Sensitivity of Phonograph Turntables to Normal Loads Halter", Jerome B.; Cole, T. S., AES1968 and comments. Unfortunately we do not have the custom LP's the authors used at that time to test our modern turntables.

However, if such subjective theory of transients was true HiRez digital would be intrinsically very superior to belt drive. In fact - now it is my very subjective opinion - the belt driven AirForce One was much closer to the DCS Vivaldi or Studer A80 playing Tapeproject tapes than the EMT927 in transient performance. This does not imply any drive system is better than other, just that other details in turntable design can overcome some traditional beliefs.

BTW1, noise and resonances can mask some fine details but enhance some other aspects - IMHO it is what can happen with some turntables. Then we pick what we prefer and enjoy.

BTW2, we should remember that in the old days the champion of "the beat and rhythm" was the belt driven Linn Sondek - I still keep a perfect vintage one for nostalgia.

BTW3 we lack specific technical details about the motors used in most idlers - otherwise it would be very interesting to calculate the moment of inertia of these compared to the platter moment of inertia.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My tt is a bit of a one-off.
If you Google "From Lenco To Salvation" on Lencoheaven.net forumboard, you'll see a fanatical devotion to taking the best of idlers, refining it into rim drive, attacking some inherent issues of idlers, to create something which I'm confident is as neutral and low noise as this brand of tech can be. From extra efforts to minimise transmission of motor borne rumble to the stylus, to maxxing high torque/flywheel, to vibration management via high mass slate and aluminium combined w ingenuous use of Delrin continuously btwn rim drive wheel and platter periphery and on platter to balance lps on, to refusal to use any encoder/feedback mechanism to correct speed. I've added a bespoke LPS to the speed controller/motor, and cutting edge Stacore isolation, plus additional motor pod isolation w Symposium Svelte pad.

I'm confident I'm taking idler impulse and maxxing low noise/neutrality/openess w Vic's design flourishes and my additional mods. Throw in the speed and delicacy of an air LT arm and Straingauge cart, and of the tts I've heard in the last few yrs, only UK Paul's Sony DD w SAEC506 12" and The General's Vyger w LT arm come close or beat it.

 

[bonzo75]

I think with your prog rock record collection both the Vyger and your TT should sound equal

 

[spiritofmusic]

You're wrong. What you meant to say I think was the tt from The Flintstones would be equally good.

 

[bonzo75]

You're wrong.

The two of us should then make a right

 

[spiritofmusic]

If it came to the two of us, I'D make a right. Right outta here.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, let's attack idler sound in a different way. If you're a fan of tubes, yes, no tube amps sound the same. But tube amps as a genre sound v different to SS. I cannot imagine one buying tube amps to look for a similarity w SS. Tube amps have that distinctive essence. As do SS amps. And never the twain shall meet.

Ditto horns v box spkrs v panels. Vinyl v digital v tape.

Yes, the v best examples may have a tendency to start to approach to meet in the middle. But that's all. Our distinctive choices on all these inform our individual takes on final sound.

And I'd say idler is as distinctive a take as any other, and maintains enough seperateness from belt and DD to appeal to a specific sector of tt fanatics.

 

[sonyfan101]

The old L70 arm has certain limitations: there's no anti-skating or azimuth adjustment. And you can
only use cartridges that can be mounted from below. And its heavy so you need something with low
compliance. On top of that, to mount the 103, you need a spacer between the cartridge and the head
shell. Ive made these myself out of a pieces of aluminium.

However, the L70 has something that almost no other arm has: spring suspension instead of counterweight.
This means that the sweet spot of the arm is indeed where it should be: right at the needle. This in turn means
that very little mechanical energy is transmitted from the needle into the arm and the bearings. And vice-versa,
you can knock hard on your lenco L70 without anything happening. There's a guy showing it on youtube.

For some reason the 103 really likes this arm.

Jesper

Thank you for the clarification. That is good to know, there is a L70 with the stock tonearm and a nice CLD plinth that popped up local to me. The seller is offering it with a Shure M3D but I was hoping it would suit the Denon as well. I don't want to get too off topic so would you mind sending me a PM with the details of your cartridge spacer?

 

[microstrip]

A relevant aspect in this debate is that some turntable belts are really stiff and will have much larger contact area than the typical idler drive. I can run the AF0 with higher tension than advised and then it starts and stops extremely fast, but IMHO sounds inferior. And I have seen people using soft materials on the idler wheels.

The type of LP mat and the use or not of a clamp also introduce plenty of variance in the drag arguments.

 

[montesquieu]

i think natural selection has refined our internal gyroscopes to sense delicate gradations of movement and sound, and 'know' what is real and less than real. while it's not everything, it is a thing. and the leverage of a fixed wheel on the inner surface of the platter get's a part of the sound more real than other approaches (at particular overall general price points). an aspect of 'suspension of disbelief' occurs which seems to be more significant (to idler celebrants) than other aspects that might be slightly compromised to some degree in the equation of execution.

why do we like this steady push sonic attribute? it brings pleasure.

I think this is the core of the matter. Musical pleasure.

Having owned belt drive decks -including tricked out LP12, Voyd 3-motor, Townshend Rock II and Rock Reference, and idlers including well-fettled Garrard 401s (I'm not generally a fan of the 301), Lencos and of course the TD124, I've settled on a Schopper'd TD124. Why? it just sounds more like music and not like hifi.

DD decks like the Technics SP10 (MkII at least) tyically sound more like CD players to my ears - soulless. Never had an urge to own one, not since I was a lad in the 70s and early 80s at least.

High mass/rim drive is an area I'd like to explore. Also quite fancy a Verdier at some point - I've liked the ones I've heard, most low mass belt drives in my experience to deliver speed wobble that you simply never hear on an idler or DD. (At least to me, a musician).

 

[bazelio]

A relevant aspect in this debate is that some turntable belts are really stiff and will have much larger contact area than the typical idler drive. I can run the AF0 with higher tension than advised and then it starts and stops extremely fast, but IMHO sounds inferior. And I have seen people using soft materials on the idler wheels.

The type of LP mat and the use or not of a clamp also introduce plenty of variance in the drag arguments.

Yes, and these shouldn't be underestimated. I hadn't done much comparing of my Kuzma Stabi M with vs without the periphery ring. But while demoing a cart that rides so low that I CAN'T use the periphery ring, I found that the sound is clearly impacted by it. I was trying to decide if giving up the periphery ring for this cart was worth it, by going back and forth on inner tracks where the cart contacting the ring wouldn't occur. And it's just no contest. The ring wins easily, and for flat records as well. Likewise, as you say, damping from platter mat and clamp all clearly affect the sound. To me, common sense says they should be engineered as a system for best results.

 

[tima]

Stylus drag was studied in the 60's and quantified with measurements for a belt drive - see "Sensitivity of Phonograph Turntables to Normal Loads Halter", Jerome B.; Cole, T. S., AES1968 and comments. Unfortunately we do not have the custom LP's the authors used at that time to test our modern turntables.

Do you have a copy of this paper that you can share? The sole result of a Web search was this thread. Being an AES paper maybe not.

I confess to being a bit sceptical of stylus drag having an audible influence or more than a negligble influence on table accuracy. I believe it is a force that (somehow?) can be measured, but if the table spins consistently at 33-? rpm is it significant? I'm not denying that it exists. Is there a way to hear stylus drag? Can it be heard?

The means of speed measurement available to the audiophile consumer - measuring the electrical ouput or audible output of a 3150Hz test tone - seem limited compared to measuring actual platter speed while playing a record. Is stylus drag detectable with a test record and a phone app? I would like to know more about this.

 

[tima]

Yes, and these shouldn't be underestimated. I hadn't done much comparing of my Kuzma Stabi M with vs without the periphery ring. But while demoing a cart that rides so low that I CAN'T use the periphery ring, I found that the sound is clearly impacted by it. I was trying to decide if giving up the periphery ring for this cart was worth it, by going back and forth on inner tracks where the cart contacting the ring wouldn't occur. And it's just no contest. The ring wins easily, and for flat records as well. Likewise, as you say, damping from platter mat and clamp all clearly affect the sound. To me, common sense says they should be engineered as a system for best results.

Thanks for your report. I'm not very familiar with rings - they vaguely seem somewhat of a risk. What does the periphery ring do to yield the difference you hear?

I assume depending on its weight, it can aid flattening of a record. I'm guessing it changes the resonance frequency of the vinyl. Is there an energy transfererence from the vinyl to the ring or vice versa? I agree about a ring's incorporation being designed for a particular table's platter surface and clamp, if included.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think this is the core of the matter. Musical pleasure.

Having owned belt drive decks -including tricked out LP12, Voyd 3-motor, Townshend Rock II and Rock Reference, and idlers including well-fettled Garrard 401s (I'm not generally a fan of the 301), Lencos and of course the TD124, I've settled on a Schopper'd TD124. Why? it just sounds more like music and not like hifi.

DD decks like the Technics SP10 (MkII at least) tyically sound more like CD players to my ears - soulless. Never had an urge to own one, not since I was a lad in the 70s and early 80s at least.

High mass/rim drive is an area I'd like to explore. Also quite fancy a Verdier at some point - I've liked the ones I've heard, most low mass belt drives in my experience to deliver speed wobble that you simply never hear on an idler or DD. (At least to me, a musician).

Montesquieu, direct rim drive is even rarer than idler. There was TT Weights out of Canada, and my own Trans Fi Salvation, but both are sadly discontinued. Very few examples show up s/h. I believe Teres still run an aftermarket Verus rim drive motor pod once can adapt to existing tts.