In praise of idlers

[jespera]

Can I conclude that you consider that stylus drag is the cause of the differences between idler and other drive types?

Yes indeed. And particularly how the drive system handles stylus drag induced by transients in the source material.

The time pattern of transients define the rhythm of the music which in turn is why idlers subjectively are better at
keeping the beat.

The cost of the idler system is potentially more drive system noise which in turn may mask fine details.
The best idler drive implementations attempt to reduce this noise as much as possible by perfect alignment, mass
and good sounding materials.

This is what you see in uber idlers such as saskia, oma, marc's, audiosilente, etc.

Personally, I dont mind trading off a few details for a perfect beat.

Jesper

 

[bonzo75]

There was/is? Terry's 501 too. I'm not dismissing idlers Marc just stating facts. I also agree that when done well idlers have their unique flavor just that there haven't been that many.

Not dismissing ribbons either Apogee had several really good speakers, I loved my Divas but in my mind the credit goes to their creator for making the concept work not the tech.

david

David you need to be more sensitive. His idler mind is the devil's ...

 

[bonzo75]

Yes indeed. And particularly how the drive system handles stylus drag induced by transients in the source material.

The time pattern of transients define the rhythm of the music which in turn is why idlers subjectively are better at
keeping the beat.

The cost of the idler system is potentially more drive system noise which in turn may mask fine details.
The best idler drive implementations attempt to reduce this noise as much as possible by perfect alignment, mass
and good sounding materials.

This is what you see in uber idlers such as saskia, oma, marc's, audiosilente, etc.

Personally, I dont mind trading off a few details for a perfect beat.

Jesper

The problem is almost no one has experience with the "uber" idlers you mentioned. Mike is the first owner on this forum of the Saskia. Visitors will get to compare it to a DD. OMA, how many compares? I really liked the Blackstone but have some reservations till I hear it in another system, which is why I don't mention it. Marc's, how many have experience with it apart from him?

Now Garrard, 124, lenco, modern belts, there are many shared experiences

 

[bonzo75]

The parallel I can draw from Marc's argument is between the lower priced idlers and Maggie 1.7i. Great value for the money. Once you spend more you get better though. As for the likes of Saskia, like Henk's grands, only the chosen ones will get to experience

 

[jespera]

I am curious that you find such a match between the 103 and the L70 arm. I have read that it's tricky if not possible to get proper geometry for the Denon's on that arm.

The old L70 arm has certain limitations: there's no anti-skating or azimuth adjustment. And you can
only use cartridges that can be mounted from below. And its heavy so you need something with low
compliance. On top of that, to mount the 103, you need a spacer between the cartridge and the head
shell. Ive made these myself out of a pieces of aluminium.

However, the L70 has something that almost no other arm has: spring suspension instead of counterweight.
This means that the sweet spot of the arm is indeed where it should be: right at the needle. This in turn means
that very little mechanical energy is transmitted from the needle into the arm and the bearings. And vice-versa,
you can knock hard on your lenco L70 without anything happening. There's a guy showing it on youtube.

For some reason the 103 really likes this arm.

Jesper

 

[spiritofmusic]

My point is that choices to go: vinyl, tube amps, horns, ribbons, stats, idlers, DD, tape: are all specialist routes compared to the ubiquitous tide of digital, SS, box spkrs.

Ok, some specialist pursuits have become successful in their own game, vinyl and tubes. I remain amazed, even as an lp afficionado, as to how many great tts there are out there. Tube amps similarly buck the trend. Horns? The choice is pretty limited. Stats as plentiful. Ribbons? Not much at all. Tape? Forget about it levels, analagous to idlers. DD? Some signs of revival. Cassette? On its way back.

Noone is daring to object to the superiority of 15ips R2R. The machines in the past ruled. Today one can refurb these as MikeL has done, or buy new. One brand, Ballfinger. Horns? AG, Cessaro. Some under the radar marques. Ribbons? Alsyvox is kinda it for new. Refurbed? Well, you have more fingers on one hand for people who will reliably refurb Apogees. Etc etc.

My point is that we're drawn in the analog world to strong representations of the analog dark arts, afficionados will flock to great tts, R2R, ribbons...and idlers.

We idler acolytes are humble before the fact that these were the workhorses burning the lp flame bright, in studios and radio stations, often 24/7/12/52. Just as the tubes we love were relied on.

So, for current modders to take these workhorses, distill their greatness for listeners half a century on, fills us idler users with a special glow of ownership.

 

[microstrip]

Yes indeed. And particularly how the drive system handles stylus drag induced by transients in the source material.

The time pattern of transients define the rhythm of the music which in turn is why idlers subjectively are better at
keeping the beat.

The cost of the idler system is potentially more drive system noise which in turn may mask fine details.
The best idler drive implementations attempt to reduce this noise as much as possible by perfect alignment, mass
and good sounding materials.

This is what you see in uber idlers such as saskia, oma, marc's, audiosilente, etc.

Personally, I dont mind trading off a few details for a perfect beat.

Jesper

Stylus drag was studied in the 60's and quantified with measurements for a belt drive - see "Sensitivity of Phonograph Turntables to Normal Loads Halter", Jerome B.; Cole, T. S., AES1968 and comments. Unfortunately we do not have the custom LP's the authors used at that time to test our modern turntables.

However, if such subjective theory of transients was true HiRez digital would be intrinsically very superior to belt drive. In fact - now it is my very subjective opinion - the belt driven AirForce One was much closer to the DCS Vivaldi or Studer A80 playing Tapeproject tapes than the EMT927 in transient performance. This does not imply any drive system is better than other, just that other details in turntable design can overcome some traditional beliefs.

BTW1, noise and resonances can mask some fine details but enhance some other aspects - IMHO it is what can happen with some turntables. Then we pick what we prefer and enjoy.

BTW2, we should remember that in the old days the champion of "the beat and rhythm" was the belt driven Linn Sondek - I still keep a perfect vintage one for nostalgia.

BTW3 we lack specific technical details about the motors used in most idlers - otherwise it would be very interesting to calculate the moment of inertia of these compared to the platter moment of inertia.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Francisco, that's a pretty well setout series of points, and hard to argue with. Fwiw, I find the compromises in so many belt drives outweigh their positives, this not so much w the handful of well implemented idlers Ive heard (and one I own).

At the top end of the mkt, of which I have much less experience, it may be that belt drive reasserts itself.

It may be that compromises in idlers can be overcome more easily at lower price points whereas belt drives need to have more spent on them for their compromises to fade.

I've heard Linn Sondek, Roksan Xerxes, Avid Acutus, SME 20 versus idlers, and despite the SME esp having an airier and more detailed presentation, the idler stole the show for red blooded drive and drama.

 

[bonzo75]

But there are many who might not prefer Linn, SME, and the acutus to other belts (i am one) so the fact you didn't prefer them does not mean you only preferred idlers. Also I think both SME and acutus see DC motor, so maybe you should see if you like a good AC motor belt

 

[assessor43]

how is the speed control with idlers?

 

[spiritofmusic]

how is the speed control with idlers?

They have their moments (double pun) Lol.

 

[Pallen]

Marc try to listen to the pink triangle anniversary with an SME V tonearm (for some reason the two are known to be a good combination, and go used together around 3500). That will easily beat the PTP. Problem is you don't get the pink triangle in a good condition always. Ask Mik about the turntable.

Similarly, Sony 8000 when well done is excellent as well. You have heard it at UK Paul, I also heard it with SME V and one of the cheaper phasemation carts playing through a Luxman integrated into the tannoy 15 inch gold. For rock and blues it was indeed one of the best systems I have heard, I haven't enjoyed LZ so match after leaving Mike's. And this whole system cost him 16k total.

Bonzo, a question - how do you rate the Feickert Firebird at its price level?

 

[assessor43]

The reason I ask the question is I have not heard an idler where I have not said "the speed is off" in my life. I spoke to a tech on this subject and the response was if I can get it within 1 percent, its good. Thats not good enough for me. I like what idlers do. They have great qualities but for me speed is VERY important.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But there are many who might not prefer Linn, SME, and the acutus to other belts (i am one) so the fact you didn't prefer them does not mean you only preferred idlers. Also I think both SME and acutus see DC motor, so maybe you should see if you like a good AC motor belt

Ked, unlike you I'm not on a mission to cross reference everything. On balance I could easily have taken the Sme 20 over the modded 301 I heard side by side. They both had compelling presentations. The 301 spoke to me more. And the family presentation I hear from all idlers beats the family presentation I hear from many many belt drives. Yes, it could be AC or DC motors making a big difference too. Ditto w arms, carts choices. But my dozen or so experiences of comparisons always led to the same general conclusions.

Only listening to the Vyger do I start to hear a definitive advantage for belt drive. Won't happen, but Saskia v Vyger would be quite the expt.

 

[bazelio]

Francisco, that's a pretty well setout series of points, and hard to argue with. Fwiw, I find the compromises in so many belt drives outweigh their positives, this not so much w the handful of well implemented idlers Ive heard (and one I own).

At the top end of the mkt, of which I have much less experience, it may be that belt drive reasserts itself.

It may be that compromises in idlers can be overcome more easily at lower price points whereas belt drives need to have more spent on them for their compromises to fade.

I've heard Linn Sondek, Roksan Xerxes, Avid Acutus, SME 20 versus idlers, and despite the SME esp having an airier and more detailed presentation, the idler stole the show for red blooded drive and drama.

I'd like to suggest that you stop saying "idler" or "idlers" and instead specify which idler. And if you're truly listening to these tables side by side by side by ... in otherwise identical chains, details of that would be good to know as well.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The reason I ask the question is I have not heard an idler where I have not said "the speed is off" in my life. I spoke to a tech on this subject and the response was if I can get it within 1 percent, its good. Thats not good enough for me. I like what idlers do. They have great qualities but for me speed is VERY important.

My idler-based rim drive is good to below 0.3% I believe. Then again, I'm less sensitive to this than many others I'm sure.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, a question - how do you rate the Feickert Firebird at its price level?

I found it quite musical compared to Reed, Thales, and the basic Pluto. On it, we used the Ikeda 407 arm. Some others who used the kuzma arm found it analytical.

At its price it will compete with STST, and save a bit more and you can get a brinkmann balance used which will be much better.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've heard modded 301, 401, L75. Direct side by side comparos, same arms and carts. Versus Linn, Roksan, Michell, Avid, Nottingham Analogue.

 

[bonzo75]

Won't happen, but Saskia v Vyger would be quite the expt.

If you ask Mike nicely and relentlessly here and on audiogon in three years or so it might happen

 

[bonzo75]

I've heard modded 301, 401, L75. Direct side by side comparos, same arms and carts. Versus Linn, Roksan, Michell, Avid, Nottingham Analogue.

How did you like the Nottingham